Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[Rhapsody]

I don't even want to post in this thread at this point, but let's get real. This thread was moving along nicely as usual. Then non-Extreme users and specifically Innuos user(s) posted in the thread questioning the engineering, design and build quality of the Extreme. You can go back and look at the thread from say mid last week.

The only reason a member posted the pics comparing the Innuos and the Extreme was to clarify the design and the build quality by a simple side by side comparison. These pics would never have been posted in this thread if a Innuos user via many posts had not been questioning the design intent, engineering and build quality of the Extreme.

My suggestion is that this thread should continue with the focus on the Extreme, which is where it was at prior to a few days ago. Let's just move on. No one that has been posting about the Extreme here for six months wanted to bring Innuos into this thread at this time, but it did happen and then it was almost a knee-jerk reaction to defend the Extreme with clear evidence regarding engineering and hw layout.

I think any of the Extreme users would compliment the Innous products as well as the other top servers. No need to really compare them. What is great is having Emile here to help both Extreme users and Extreme potential users optimize their use of the Extreme.

All good. We are definitely living in the Golden Age of servers, with probably much more to come in the future.

As I said I think it's just time to move on. All good.

Blacmorec,

I also spent 17 years in the eighties and nineties working for a major CAD/CAM company and was involved in the engineering/design departments for the Space Station,GM Ford and Chrysler, Boeing etc.

Then spent 8 years at Intel corporation working with companies in their engineering/design departments.

I think that product design discussions are very interesting but probly more appropriate in a separate thread.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Not bad, but if you strike for excellence, the Extreme is the first choice.

I heard that Emile will launch a lower price model in 2020, which is upgradable to Extreme later on.

I have just returned from a short 4 day trip enjoying some quality time with my family so have been short with my responses.

In more detail:

We have been working on a model to release at below Extreme level. As Romaz pointed out in his report visiting our factory earlier we have several operational prototypes running on lower processing power CPUs, including custom order motherboards. There are some obvious cost saving benefits to this approach, computer hardware, cooling systems, power supplies and chassis size can all be executed smaller, lighter and cheaper. However we are unlikely to pursue this approach at this time for the following reasons:
-We are not fit out to be a mass manufacturing company and currently have no ambitions to become one.
-We want to focus our efforts on advancing computer playback technology and be able to dedicate a lion share of our resources on research. Expanding to larger facilities and hiring more staff for manufacturing. logistics and support is going to be counter productive to this primary goal. We like where we are right now.
-We are actively participating on this forum, not just to answer questions from prospective future customers, but also to gather valuable feedback from our machines performance in the field. We are also trying to actively visit as many of our clients as we can manage. We have learned a lot from our travels to the US and Europe, and are planning a trip to Hong Kong next. How our servers perform in different systems, with varying accessories, all provide valuable data points we study and use to improve our products. A small mass production server is unlikely to provide us with reliable feedback we can process and use right now.
-Therefor our next product is going to be a scaled down version of The Extreme, which will likely be our lowest end offering for the foreseeable future. We feel it to be of vital importance for our products to be a solid future proof investment, therefor we are aiming for it to be upgradeable to full Extreme level at near the cost differential. This is going to influence some of our design choices. We also want future technology we are developing to be applicable to both platforms.
-Furthermore we greatly value consumer experience, therefor we are investigating viability to offer on site upgrades to our servers at a minimal upcharge.

With all of that said, this is what our next model is shaping up to be:
-Same chassis as the Extreme
-Single CPU, half the memory
-Reduced cooling capacity
-Scaled down powersupply
-Same music storage subsystem and capacity
-Adjusted operating system optimised for single CPU usage
-About a 20% reduction in weight due to lower demands for cooling and powersupply current capability

 

[shaned]

I have just returned from a short 4 day trip enjoying some quality time with my family so have been short with my responses.

In more detail:

We have been working on a model to release at below Extreme level. As Romaz pointed out in his report visiting our factory earlier we have several operational prototypes running on lower processing power CPUs, including custom order motherboards. There are some obvious cost saving benefits to this approach, computer hardware, cooling systems, power supplies and chassis size can all be executed smaller, lighter and cheaper. However we are unlikely to pursue this approach at this time for the following reasons:
-We are not fit out to be a mass manufacturing company and currently have no ambitions to become one.
-We want to focus our efforts on advancing computer playback technology and be able to dedicate a lion share of our resources on research. Expanding to larger facilities and hiring more staff for manufacturing. logistics and support is going to be counter productive to this primary goal. We like where we are right now.
-We are actively participating on this forum, not just to answer questions from prospective future customers, but also to gather valuable feedback from our machines performance in the field. We are also trying to actively visit as many of our clients as we can manage. We have learned a lot from our travels to the US and Europe, and are planning a trip to Hong Kong next. How our servers perform in different systems, with varying accessories, all provide valuable data points we study and use to improve our products. A small mass production server is unlikely to provide us with reliable feedback we can process and use right now.
-Therefor our next product is going to be a scaled down version of The Extreme, which will likely be our lowest end offering for the foreseeable future. We feel it to be of vital importance for our products to be a solid future proof investment, therefor we are aiming for it to be upgradeable to full Extreme level at near the cost differential. This is going to influence some of our design choices. We also want future technology we are developing to be applicable to both platforms.
-Furthermore we greatly value consumer experience, therefor we are investigating viability to offer on site upgrades to our servers at a minimal upcharge.

With all of that said, this is what our next model is shaping up to be:
-Same chassis as the Extreme
-Single CPU, half the memory
-Reduced cooling capacity
-Scaled down powersupply
-Same music storage subsystem and capacity
-Adjusted operating system optimised for single CPU usage
-About a 20% reduction in weight due to lower demands for cooling and powersupply current capability

This what I am interested in and what I will be keeping an eye on in 2020 with the ability further down the road to upgrade the machine to Extreme level without breaking the bank to buy it to begin with. That option to upgrade the machine to a better spec rather than having to buy a brand new machine gives to me at least a sense that I don't need to spend serious amounts of cash every few years to stay relevant with the ever changing world of digital components. Surely that is what most customers would want rather than part exchanging old machines to pay for new ones every few years.

 

[Taiko Audio]

A notable recognition for the Extreme is the award of “Best Product of 2019” by Mono & Stereo magazine. Other products bestowed this honor are the Totaldac D1 driver and Amp1 amplifier.

 

[Steve Williams]

Well deserved. Congrats

 

[Stereophonic]

Congratulations !!!
Where can i find Matej’s review?

 

[Hieukm]

Monoandstereo is so such bullshit and scam site. Pinkfaun get editor choice while shm extreme get best of 2019. Riviera pre to get editor choice and d1-driver to get best of 2019.

So the reviewer just get to buy both at a quarter of price.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Monoandstereo is so such bullshit and scam site. Pinkfaun get editor choice while shm extreme get best of 2019. Riviera pre to get editor choice and d1-driver to get best of 2019.

So the reviewer just get to buy both at a quarter of price.

of course; none of us really know exactly what happened.

but let's ignore the emotional and just use logic, and even the words of Michael Fremer on this subject.

(i'm paraphrasing this). Mr. Fremer's honest perspective is that, sure, reviewers get good buys (sometimes very good buys) on gear. but they can get good buys on ANY gear. they still need to CHOOSE which gear they spend their own money on.

and so their choice is not based on the deal, but what they like. price/value still comes into it. i know plenty of reviewers and i can tell you that is what happens. they many times review things they might want to buy.......BECAUSE THEY LIKE IT.

and if you resent reviewers getting good buys, become a reviewer.

 

[Hieukm]

of course; none of us really know exactly what happened.

but let's ignore the emotional and just use logic, and even the words of Michael Fremer on this subject.

(i'm paraphrasing this). Mr. Fremer's honest perspective is that, sure, reviewers get good buys (sometimes very good buys) on gear. but they can get good buys on ANY gear. they still need to CHOOSE which gear they spend their own money on.

and so their choice is not based on the deal, but what they like. price/value still comes into it. i know plenty of reviewers and i can tell you that is what happens. they many times review things they might want to buy.......BECAUSE THEY LIKE IT.

and if you resent reviewers getting good buys, become a reviewer.

I dont resent them for getting good buys. Thats between them and the producer. But if you(MikeL) getting a pair of CH M1.1 for free or 25% then calling them the best thing ever after all the Dartzeel 468s praising then i question everything about you and the CH M1.1 mono. Then i question why is everyone saying congrats here after.

Does that sound too harsh??

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I dont resent them for getting good buys. Thats between them and the producer. But if you(MikeL) getting a pair of CH M1.1 for free or 25% then calling them the best thing ever after all the Dartzeel 468s praising then i question everything about you and the CH M1.1 mono. Then i question why is everyone saying congrats here after.

Does that sound too harsh??

i think 'free' or even 25% is not real world. that view reminds me of my customers buying cars that they think we have 25% or more margin when it's more like 7% or 8% (maybe 10% in extreme cases) including factory support. they are sure that they are right, but they are very wrong.

think of it this way. an accommodation is based upon the opportunity to use the gear then not lose money when it's sold. and they are typically required to keep it a minimum period of time. look at what a piece of gear sells for used a couple year later, that's about an accommodation price. they are in the industry and in this way can change gear relatively frequently and not lose depreciation. brick and mortar hifi salespeople typically get similar opportunities for the same reasons.

the issue is that reviewers have a wide degree of choices among the type of gear they review. if we accept that we desire gear to be reviewed professionally, then accommodation pricing (discounts) are going to be part of having gear reviewed. those people do us the service, and that is part of the equation for their efforts.

my own view is that when a reviewer's own dollars are spent that is the highest praise possible. they are not buying every piece of gear they review.

 

[Hieukm]

I am also not against their buying and selling the equipment they get discount. I just think its a disgrace for manufacturers and readers to read: one product got Editor choice then another product get best of 2019. It makes the whole thing laughable. Then there are supporters for each product to say congrats to the title. Then it becomes silly really.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am also not against their buying and selling the equipment they get discount. I just think its a disgrace for manufacturers and readers to read: one product got Editor choice then another product get best of 2019. It makes the whole thing laughable. Then there are supporters for each product to say congrats to the title. Then it becomes silly really.

agree that hifi media awards are not the most reliable data points. but having been personally involved in that process briefly many years ago, it is still a sign of respect for the product. so it's a plus but maybe a minor one.

i think we don't need to get upset about it, just keep it in perspective.

it does make for a fun forum topic though.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Congratulations !!!
Where can i find Matej’s review?

Thank you Stereophonic! The review has not been published yet, no conspiracy though, it has been delayed at our own request as we and our suppliers have been struggling to keep up with the demand as is.

 

[vhs]

Thank you Stereophonic! The review has not been published yet, no conspiracy though, it has been delayed at our own request as we and our suppliers have been struggling to keep up with the demand as is.

Taiko Audio SGM Extreme is a piece of art.

 

[EuroDriver]

Taiko Audio SGM Extreme is a piece of art.

A guided tour for Korean competition !

But it does show the cost to RRP ratio which Taiko is delivering on the hardware side

The copper parts and Panzerholz parts are manufactured in house

Mundorf, Dueland bringing their sonics to the table

 

[Taiko Audio]

I am also not against their buying and selling the equipment they get discount. I just think its a disgrace for manufacturers and readers to read: one product got Editor choice then another product get best of 2019. It makes the whole thing laughable. Then there are supporters for each product to say congrats to the title. Then it becomes silly really.

Hi Hieukm,

As Mike pointed out above it is indeed interesting to discuss the added value of reviews.

We have submitted 2 Extreme samples for review, 1 with Marja & Henk of 6moons and 1 with Matej Isak of Mono & Stereo. We have personally delivered both review samples to add context to the design priorities, aid in setting it up and provide general background information about our company. Now there is some risk involved with doing so as you can never be sure the reviewer is going to like your product, yet as these are experienced writers, their reviews can provide people with some insights and "what to expect" when buying a product. Of course there is a commercial aspect to this. When a reviewer or a group of reviewers launch a website, usually just as an hobby initially, they start out reviewing products for free to generate content and attract people to their website. When this venture turns out to be successful, time expenditure, general website hosting costs, travelling to shows around the world start to amount to significant costs. It can become so time consuming the reviewers are quitting their jobs to devote all their time on their web magazine. Obviously they cannot live of nothing, at which point they start to include advertising services in the form of banners on their websites. The most popular sites have even converted to not accepting samples for review if you do not buy a banner on their website, even if it's just for 1 month, it's a matter of principle, and at this stage they need to cover their costs of running their websites. A clear explanation as to why was published by 6moons here : https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/why/why.html

Now I can understand how things may start to look shady at this point in time, you may develop the notion that reviews can be bought, now that may very well be possible somewhere, you can buy University degrees in shady parts of the Internet, why not reviews. However ask yourself this question: Why would people, having invested years of their lives into building their magazine, it is literally their life's work, risk all of that? It is bound to come out at some point in time destroying all credibility and everything you have worked for so hard to build. People like Matej and Srajan have nothing to gain, but everything to lose from walking that path. I have personally met them, these are passionate people who take pride in what they do.

Addressing the awards under discussion:

The Pink Faun 2.16X received an "upper echelon class" award.
The Totaldac D1 driver received an "highly recommended product" award.
The Extreme review is pending.

The "Best of 2019" awards are not tied to these classes, but awarded to products released and/or submitted for review in 2019 which stand out in one way or another.

If we take the Totaldac D1 driver as an example, I think it's a remarkable product, I have personally bought a pair which has replaced my 7 times more expensive Audionet Stern preamplifier (although it's really 3.5 times as I bought 2), so in my opinion it definitely deserves an award. It did not receive an "editors choice" nor an "upper echelon class award", it did however receive a "highly recommended product" award, and it did receive a "Best of 2019" award. I am not aware what the criteria are exactly for these awards, my guess would be the Totaldac D1 driver is not a vital part for system operation. Yet it can dramatically improve digital playback performance, which may be why it received the "highly recommended product" award, and being somewhat "novel" maybe the "Best of 2019" award, but I'm just guessing here. I am also unaware of what motivates the Extreme "Best of 2019" award, it came without an explanation, but it is obviously something different to the usual with a few unique features you won't find in other products, which may entitle it to receive this award, but again, I'm just guessing.

As for reviewers acquiring review samples, it is indeed an honour, and it's no big secret something like an industry accommodation arrangement does exist where people in the industry can acquire products at reduced rates. That probably applies to all industries.

 

[Hieukm]

Hi Hieukm,

As Mike pointed out above it is indeed interesting to discuss the added value of reviews.

We have submitted 2 Extreme samples for review, 1 with Marja & Henk of 6moons and 1 with Matej Isak of Mono & Stereo. We have personally delivered both review samples to add context to the design priorities, aid in setting it up and provide general background information about our company. Now there is some risk involved with doing so as you can never be sure the reviewer is going to like your product, yet as these are experienced writers, their reviews can provide people with some insights and "what to expect" when buying a product. Of course there is a commercial aspect to this. When a reviewer or a group of reviewers launch a website, usually just as an hobby initially, they start out reviewing products for free to generate content and attract people to their website. When this venture turns out to be successful, time expenditure, general website hosting costs, travelling to shows around the world start to amount to significant costs. It can become so time consuming the reviewers are quitting their jobs to devote all their time on their web magazine. Obviously they cannot live of nothing, at which point they start to include advertising services in the form of banners on their websites. The most popular sites have even converted to not accepting samples for review if you do not buy a banner on their website, even if it's just for 1 month, it's a matter of principle, and at this stage they need to cover their costs of running their websites. A clear explanation as to why was published by 6moons here : https://6moons.com/audioreviews2/why/why.html

Now I can understand how things may start to look shady at this point in time, you may develop the notion that reviews can be bought, now that may very well be possible somewhere, you can buy University degrees in shady parts of the Internet, why not reviews. However ask yourself this question: Why would people, having invested years of their lives into building their magazine, it is literally their life's work, risk all of that? It is bound to come out at some point in time destroying all credibility and everything you have worked for so hard to build. People like Matej and Srajan have nothing to gain, but everything to lose from walking that path. I have personally met them, these are passionate people who take pride in what they do.

Addressing the awards under discussion:

The Pink Faun 2.16X received an "upper echelon class" award.
The Totaldac D1 driver received an "highly recommended product" award.
The Extreme review is pending.

The "Best of 2019" awards are not tied to these classes, but awarded to products released and/or submitted for review in 2019 which stand out in one way or another.

If we take the Totaldac D1 driver as an example, I think it's a remarkable product, I have personally bought a pair which has replaced my 7 times more expensive Audionet Stern preamplifier (although it's really 3.5 times as I bought 2), so in my opinion it definitely deserves an award. It did not receive an "editors choice" nor an "upper echelon class award", it did however receive a "highly recommended product" award, and it did receive a "Best of 2019" award. I am not aware what the criteria are exactly for these awards, my guess would be the Totaldac D1 driver is not a vital part for system operation. Yet it can dramatically improve digital playback performance, which may be why it received the "highly recommended product" award, and being somewhat "novel" maybe the "Best of 2019" award, but I'm just guessing here. I am also unaware of what motivates the Extreme "Best of 2019" award, it came without an explanation, but it is obviously something different to the usual with a few unique features you won't find in other products, which may entitle it to receive this award, but again, I'm just guessing.

As for reviewers acquiring review samples, it is indeed an honour, and it's no big secret something like an industry accommodation arrangement does exist where people in the industry can acquire products at reduced rates. That probably applies to all industries.

Hi Emile,

You and Mike are justifying the means to an end. I am merely discussing an end.

While over here everyone is cheering on and giving obscene amount of money to Matej for his extravaganza but has no meaning words. In the end, he gave two products on the same categories(Preamp) D1-driver and Riviera lab best of 2019. Probably because he likes them and buy them both. But he does not have the decency nor integrity to say one of them is better than another.

Bonzo is doing actual review and comparison through his precious non-working time. No one is paying him anything. No one is saying congrats to a piece of equipment when he praises them. But at least he calls when one equipment is better than another, in his view of course.

I have discussed the Pink Faun 2.16x in their thread. It has got the upper echelon while SGM extreme has the best of 2019 awards. It should hint to readers which one is better. I hope Matej has the decency to compare SGM to Pink Faun at least in SGM review.

 

[howiebrou]

Honestly, who gives a toot which product is given what award? I don't buy my gear based on rewards but I will simplify my search by reading comments from those who have either put down their hard earned cash to obtain one or bothered to audition them. Reviewers are who they are. Whether they can compare every product under the sun depends on many factors. I would love someone to compare the Extreme vs. Pink faun vs. Statement vs. TotalDac server but it probably isn't going to happen just because we want it to. That's life.

I also don't understand why Matej has to say whether the D1-Driver or Riviera Lab is better? Why do we care? If he says both are great and we believe him, isn't that enough? Why must there be one winner in all of this? It's so subjective anyway. I have the CH C1 Dac and Lampizator Pacific at home. Both are great products. If you're interested in these two products, go have a listen, is what i would say.

 

[Stereophonic]

Thank you Stereophonic! The review has not been published yet, no conspiracy though, it has been delayed at our own request as we and our suppliers have been struggling to keep up with the demand as is.

Hi Taiko.
I don´t understand your strategy. Have you delayed the review but don´t the award? To keep demand as is it?
I think that is contradictory and create confusion. Doesn't the award generate more demand?
From a professional perspective i wouldn't accepted an award that is not based on a public review.
I would be more rigorous in my marketing line.

 

[matthias]

With all of that said, this is what our next model is shaping up to be:
-Same chassis as the Extreme
-Single CPU, half the memory
-Reduced cooling capacity
-Scaled down powersupply
-Same music storage subsystem and capacity
-Adjusted operating system optimised for single CPU usage
-About a 20% reduction in weight due to lower demands for cooling and powersupply current capability

Hi Emile,
in comparison to the Extreme which function of the next model will be more compromised:
Playing stored files or streaming from Qobuz?
Thanks

Matt