Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[dminches]

I’m going to have to find a way to send you some of those PureDSD direct from tape transfers, some of these go back to the 50s. It’s just a different experience.

Emile, is this classical music for the most part or jazz too?

 

[Steve Williams]

i'm open to where this might go. i am hearing 'vinyl' like inner musical reveals in familiar digitally sourced recordings for sure. spooky good stuff.

will a voice or instrument or venue come alive (suspension of disbelief) in the realm of my better (top 2/3rds of 8000 records) analog based vinyl playback? not yet hearing that. this stuff is never any sort of absolute/always thing.

and it makes sense that digital evolves to the point where the native recording format and quality become dominant in performance. and that digital playback equals vinyl for those. that is what seemingly i'm hearing now on those recordings. OTOH the analog sourced recordings in vinyl have both the format advantage (IMHO) plus the methods and creative assets used during that era as advantages. the recording process is always the most important thing. Thursday night i had a local friend over for a fun session. we did start with some digital (did not yet have the USB card installed) for a few cuts, but then it was all 45-50+ year old recordings in vinyl. that's how that mostly goes.

Since the TAS driver and now the Taiko Audio USB board are up and running, I find that my digital side is so good now that for my ears it becomes impossible to tell one hires format from another when the same song is played. For my ears the digital we are hearing now is so good that I have ceased looking at what format the file is as they just ALL sound so damn good

As someone suggested, it will be interesting revisiting your thoughts in 2 weeks as the sound just gets better daily

 

[Taiko Audio]

Not a specific genre.

OUR DSD RELEASES WHICH ARE MARKED "PURE DSD" ORIGINATE FROM A DSD MASTERING WITH NO PCM EDITING. ​

DSD cannot be edited, any DSD release which has been edited has been converted to PCM, edited and converted back again.

A few of my favourites:

Recording Info: Transferred from a 15ips 2-track tape
Producer – Bob Thiele
Engineer – Ray Hall
Recorded by Roulette Records 1961
Released 1963

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.co...ong-duke-ellington-the-great-reunion-pure-dsd


Recording Info: Transferred from a 15ips 2-track tape
Producer – Teddy Reig
Recorded by Roulette Records 1961

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.co...-hours-pure-dsd?_pos=385&_sid=8b94a21ab&_ss=r


Recording Info: Transferred from a 15ips 2-track tape
Engineer – Bob Arnold
Producer – Bob Thiele
Recorded in Los Angeles, CA., May 14 And 19, 1963 by Riverside Records

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.co...llys-manne-hole-hollywood-california-pure-dsd

Comparing these on Roon vs TAS is interesting, the delta is much larger then with “less pure” transfers.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i might already have all three of those HDTT's, i know i have the Bill Evans, which i listen to frequently and love. it's excellent. listening to it right now.

i have 45 rpm vinyl of both the Bill Evans and the Great Reunion which are remarkable as one would expect. in a few weeks i will do the compare and report.

 

[dminches]

Since the TAS driver and now the Taiko Audio USB board are up and running, I find that my digital side is so good now that for my ears it becomes impossible to tell one hires format from another when the same song is played. For my ears the digital we are hearing now is so good that I have ceased looking at what format the file is as they just ALL sound so damn good

As someone suggested, it will be interesting revisiting your thoughts in 2 weeks as the sound just gets better daily

Steve, very often the 16/44.1 transfers and mastering were done years before the hi res. To me, it is the mastering that makes all the difference. I supposed for some recordings they could have done both resolutions at the same time. in that case I do think they would sound very similar.

I listened to an original ripped CD of Traffic's "Low Spark of High-Heeled Boys" and it isn't very good. I did a DSD transfer of my safety master copy and it completely blows away the original.

 

[Taiko Audio]

A few more:

Recording Info: Transferred from a 15ips 2-track tape
Recorded by Columbia 1957 in NYC

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.com/products/duke-ellington-indigos?_pos=1033&_sid=8b94a21ab&_ss=r


Recording Info: Transferred from a 15ips 2-Track Tape
Producer: Fred Reynolds / Engineer: John Norman
Date of Recording: March 1958
Venue: Webster Hall, New York

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.co...-cootie-williams-on-trumpet-and-his-orchestra


Source used for Transfer: Transferred from a 15ips Tape
Recording Info: Recorded by Verve Records January 5, 1959 - December 27, 1961
Produced by Norman Granz
Engineer- Val Valentin

https://www.highdeftapetransfers.co...ld-swings-brightly-with-nelson-pure-dsd-redux

 

[oldmustang]

Vinyl sourced from digital hardly stands a chance anymore. And that is a pretty big milestone for digital. I already lost interest of buying vinyls sourced from digital and look for vinyls sourced from the analog master tapes or as close as possible to that

We are getting to the point where the recording and mastering matters, not whether it's digital or analog. I still have my 5% of top vinyl records that sound better than any digital I've heard, but the difference is getting smaller and smaller.

I agree 100%. I would only add that even pre-Extreme, let alone Extreme+TAS+Taiko USB card, mastering and engineering really mattered for digital just as it always has for vinyl. Even high resolution digital is no guarantee of great sound quality, and I've stopped being surprised when a CD rip sounds incredible, with long, trailing cymbal sounds and pure HF reproduction, long the bete noir of Redbook reproduction.

And don't get me started on modern vinyl reissues vs. original pressings!

Steve Z

 

[oldmustang]

Not a specific genre.

OUR DSD RELEASES WHICH ARE MARKED "PURE DSD" ORIGINATE FROM A DSD MASTERING WITH NO PCM EDITING. ​

DSD cannot be edited, any DSD release which has been edited has been converted to PCM, edited and converted back again.

Emile, this looks like High Definition Tape Transfers (HDTT) statement about their analog tape to DSD releases. I agree, the sound quality, naturalness and vinyl-like -- or maybe I should say, tape-like -- sound on many of their releases is superb.

However, though I don't claim to be a mastering engineer, I believe the statement about DSD only being able to be edited in the PCM domain is incorrect. I believe the Sony Sonoma system and Pyramix both allow editing in the DSD domain.

I'm happy to be corrected if this is not the case.

Steve Z

 

[ray-dude]

In the back of my mind, I am wondering if original digital masters will one day become as interesting to some as original pressings. The analog to digital conversion was definitely primitive, but mixing was more traditional, with less "damage" from digital processing. I'm listening to very high profile modern remasters nd while they sound clean and modern, the life/pop/realism is really shrouded. A digital rip from a vintage reel to reel tape is much more present and engaging, even with tape hiss and reduced dynamic range.

With these modern digital chains, the notion of what makes a technically great recording/master is definitely evolving. More and more, I'm leaning into masterings with as little digital processing as possible.

 

[oldmustang]

However, though I don't claim to be a mastering engineer, I believe the statement about DSD only being able to be edited in the PCM domain is incorrect. I believe the Sony Sonoma system and Pyramix both allow editing in the DSD domain.

Q. Can I record, mix and master in DSD?

The DSD/SuperAudio CD format seems to slowly be coming back into focus, with recent releases from Korg and Sony, after many thought it was dead. Steinberg released software support for DSD some time ago in Cubase, but is it possible today to use DSD with Cubase or other desktop recording...

www.soundonsound.com

"As I understand it, there are currently only two DAWs that can process (ie. mix, equalise, control dynamics of, and so on) DSD data directly, and they are Merging Technologies' Pyramix and Sony's Sonoma. SADiE used to offer its System 5 DSD platforms, and Sonic Solutions also had a DSD platform, but both are now out of production." -- SOS Technical Editor Hugh Robjohns

Steve Z

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thank you Steve, wasn’t aware, I guess we just have to trust the “PureDSD” label at face value then.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

With these modern digital chains, the notion of what makes a technically great recording/master is definitely evolving. More and more, I'm leaning into masterings with as little digital processing as possible.

since i've had a 'bit-perfect' dac the idea of finding and playing the native file has become my focus, and so far have not found an exception to take me another direction. redbook native can be nearly as good (for simple music) as any other, the recording quality/purity being a more dominant factor than the choice of format.

if a dac is an upsampler i wonder whether that picture is different?

 

[Taiko Audio]

There are very aware recording studios / mastering engineers, like Mark Conese: https://www.markconesedesign.com/

He takes literally all aspects of what can possibly affect sound in consideration. Browsing his website says enough, and yes he even modifies network gear, the right way I would have to add.

 

[oldmustang]

Thank you Steve, wasn’t aware, I guess we just have to trust the “PureDSD” label at face value then.

You're welcome, Emile. I think what Bob at HDTT is referring to is that he doesn't do any editing of his tape-to-DSD transfers (the ones with his PureDSD label) to correct dropouts, or to digitally splice several different tapes of the same release together to get one perfect transfer. So the HDTT releases are as-is, sometimes with a dropout here or there and sometimes with some very low-level tape hiss.

Steve

 

[aLLeARS]

Hi Steve,
That is correct information about DAW's that can edit DSD. However the devil is in the details. I was involved with the first direct to DSD recordings made in the US in 1997. When Sony had just introduced the technology and Tom Jung of DMP Records made the first direct to DSD recording at Ambient Recording Co.
Both those DAW's change DSD to PCM (DXD) in order to make edits and or process the signal in any way. They will playback pure DSD as long as the files are not manipulated. Engineers can keep it pure DSD by just trimming the top and bottom of a track where just the trims would be converted from DSD to PCM and back. The body of the track staying pure DSD.
DSD can be an amazing sounding format. It always seemed to me to be closer to analog sounding then PCM.

 

[cmarin]

Hi Steve,
That is correct information about DAW's that can edit DSD. However the devil is in the details. I was involved with the first direct to DSD recordings made in the US in 1997. When Sony had just introduced the technology and Tom Jung of DMP Records made the first direct to DSD recording at Ambient Recording Co.
Both those DAW's change DSD to PCM (DXD) in order to make edits and or process the signal in any way. They will playback pure DSD as long as the files are not manipulated. Engineers can keep it pure DSD by just trimming the top and bottom of a track where just the trims would be converted from DSD to PCM and back. The body of the track staying pure DSD.
DSD can be an amazing sounding format. It always seemed to me to be closer to analog sounding then PCM.

As a dear friend of mine is fond of saying: “If you’re not careful, you might learn something!”
I try not to be too careful on this thread. It’s always a learning experience!

 

[ray-dude]

There are very aware recording studios / mastering engineers, like Mark Conese: https://www.markconesedesign.com/

Wouldn't it be wonderful to spend a day in that studio, talking about why it was built the way it was, and listening first hand!

Emile, have you heard any of his recordings? I'm not seeing them on streaming services

 

[Taiko Audio]

This one was mastered using the Extreme:



https://www.ambientrecords.com/recordings/helmet-of-gnats-high-street-8433l

 

[spiritofmusic]

Emile, I have their first two albums. When you say it was mastered w Extreme, you mean that's the means it was played back? Or was Extreme in the middle of the mastering chain?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Emile, I have their first two albums. When you say it was mastered w Extreme, you mean that's the means it was played back? Or was Extreme in the middle of the mastering chain?

Samplitude Pro was installed on their Extreme and used for this production in stead of their normal studio PC. I have virtually no knowledge of mastering techniques so that’s about all I know/understand.