Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[nuway]

An unbelievable outcome from the network card situation:

My card has worked w/o bracket and lid on for 10 days. Yesterday I fitted the new bracket, lid on, shutdown after 35 minutes. As an aside, my network card sounded better with the bracket on. So not wanting to take the lid off or remove the bracket while waiting for the solution, I tried this:

View attachment 106523

Now network card works fine with bracket mounted and screwed down and lid on.

BUT, here is the great part: my Extreme HAS NEVER sounded better. Better than what adding the switch does, better than adding the network card. Clearer, more dynamic, micro detail I have never heard before, imaging, layering...I was up until 2am this morning listening! Stunned would be the best way to describe what I'm hearing. All I did was put the cooling fan in place, (pulling air up BTW), powered by an outboard USB charger.
So what's going on? The whole Extreme is running cooler. I can only surmise that the entire Extreme running cooler is the benefit.
I would have never tried this until the over heating card came into play.
Right now this appears to be a game changer for the Extreme....

Interesting to try diffrent brakets material and their influence in the SQ.

 

[nenon]

Lowering the temperature inside the server has a very audible effect. It does sound better when the temperature is lower. I've noticed this with my DIY servers, and it also applies to my Extreme.

So why Taiko didn't just add a fan inside the Extreme? The vibrations inside the server have a bad impact. Keep those vibrations away and you get better sound. The electrical noise from the fan is also audible. You can power it with a battery but then you still have vibrations.

Engineering is always full of compromises. And it's a balancing act. In the case of the Extreme, Taiko has put a lot of effort and money into the passive cooling solution. Massive copper heatsinks don't come cheap. I haven't seen a digital music server with better passive cooling solution than the Extreme. And yet, if you can get the inside of the Extreme a little cooler, there will be a positive effect. The question is if the net effect is positive or negative after the vibrations impact of the fan, electrical noise, etc. And it's not just the mechanical movement of the fan... the air movement inside the server is also causing vibrations.
I believe that a fan can have a positive impact and at $15 it's a cheap experiment to do. However, if you try a USB fan, do not connect the USB to the Extreme. I would use an external USB battery pack for the test. Similarly, if the fan connects to the mains, keep it away from your audio dedicated outlets.

On some level many of the improvements done on the server have a direct or indirect correlation to the heat. For example, by offloading some of the network processing from the server to the switch you have the NIC do less work, which also keeps it cooler. Also, when you have less packet processing, the CPU has to do less, and that also keeps it cooler. The difference a few packets make might be minimal and impossible to hear, but you keep optimizing the music server in a similar fashion ang things add up and start shaping better.

Funny to move away from the DIY world to the Extreme thread and to see so many DIY solutions in a couple of days . Well, it's much better than reading 5 pages of Fedex tracking updates every time I log in to catch up.

While on that topic, I hope people understand that updating firmware on a chip on a PCIe card from Windows is not a very simple thing to do. This is not just a simple driver update. It's not a simple matter of copying a file either. You have to replace a piece of code on a chip. The Operating system does not have native access to that chip. You are at the mercy of the tools provided by the chip manufacturer. Last time I have done something like this (not on the Extreme) I had to connect a keyboard and monitor, change BIOS settings, boot from a special USB drive and run a special tool. That may not be the case here, and it may be way easier than that, but I am just making a point that it may take some time for Taiko to get this to be user upgradeable. And that's not even covering the actual process of changing the firmware and testing it, which is way more complex.

 

[Zeotrope]

Interesting result, @Kingsrule. Is your fan even the slightest bit audible at your normal listening distance?

The reason I ask is that one explanation might be the auditory phenomenon known as "neural auditory contrast enhancement" which can make as much as a 25dB increase in the apparent audibility of small signals.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2024794118

A very low, steady-state non-correlated signal, such as white noise (in this case, postulating the "fan hiss" as the steady-state non-correlated signal) has been shown to elicit this effect when present along with the desired signal content. Test subjects have expressed this phenomenon in terms very similar to the ones you used. The desired signal seems to "pop out" in terms of perceptual ability.

There is much we are still learning about human hearing and the ear/brain interface.

Steve Z

I have several AC infinity fans and also tried one on the Extreme. It did prevent the card from disconnecting.
I did not notice an improvement in sound quality, and actually noticed additional background noise.The AC fans are noisy, both in sound output and electrical noise.

 

[ctydwn]

"Honey, why is your equipment rack now in the wine cellar?" For the record, I do not have one, but wish I did now for multiple reasons.

 

[Kingsrule]

"Honey, why is your equipment rack now in the wine cellar?" For the record, I do not have one, but wish I did now for multiple reasons.

LOL All my gear except for the speakers (obviously) is in basement, but not anywhere near the wine cellar...

 

[Kingsrule]

I have several AC infinity fans and also tried one on the Extreme. It did prevent the card from disconnecting.
I did not notice an improvement in sound quality, and actually noticed additional background noise.The AC fans are noisy, both in sound output and electrical noise.

Mine is pretty quiet and I don't power it from the Extreme or any of the audio ac lines...no background noise. As a matter of fact I think the audio background is quieter (blacker,darker whatever u prefer) with the fan cooling the Extreme

 

[oldmustang]

"Honey, why is your equipment rack now in the wine cellar?" For the record, I do not have one, but wish I did now for multiple reasons.

And to think some people were giving me a hard time about the temperature I keep my house. . .

Steve Z

 

[seatrope]

Lowering the temperature inside the server has a very audible effect. It does sound better when the temperature is lower. I've noticed this with my DIY servers, and it also applies to my Extreme.

So why Taiko didn't just add a fan inside the Extreme? The vibrations inside the server have a bad impact. Keep those vibrations away and you get better sound. The electrical noise from the fan is also audible. You can power it with a battery but then you still have vibrations.

Engineering is always full of compromises. And it's a balancing act. In the case of the Extreme, Taiko has put a lot of effort and money into the passive cooling solution. Massive copper heatsinks don't come cheap. I haven't seen a digital music server with better passive cooling solution than the Extreme. And yet, if you can get the inside of the Extreme a little cooler, there will be a positive effect. The question is if the net effect is positive or negative after the vibrations impact of the fan, electrical noise, etc. And it's not just the mechanical movement of the fan... the air movement inside the server is also causing vibrations.
I believe that a fan can have a positive impact and at $15 it's a cheap experiment to do. However, if you try a USB fan, do not connect the USB to the Extreme. I would use an external USB battery pack for the test. Similarly, if the fan connects to the mains, keep it away from your audio dedicated outlets.

On some level many of the improvements done on the server have a direct or indirect correlation to the heat. For example, by offloading some of the network processing from the server to the switch you have the NIC do less work, which also keeps it cooler. Also, when you have less packet processing, the CPU has to do less, and that also keeps it cooler. The difference a few packets make might be minimal and impossible to hear, but you keep optimizing the music server in a similar fashion ang things add up and start shaping better.

Funny to move away from the DIY world to the Extreme thread and to see so many DIY solutions in a couple of days . Well, it's much better than reading 5 pages of Fedex tracking updates every time I log in to catch up.

While on that topic, I hope people understand that updating firmware on a chip on a PCIe card from Windows is not a very simple thing to do. This is not just a simple driver update. It's not a simple matter of copying a file either. You have to replace a piece of code on a chip. The Operating system does not have native access to that chip. You are at the mercy of the tools provided by the chip manufacturer. Last time I have done something like this (not on the Extreme) I had to connect a keyboard and monitor, change BIOS settings, boot from a special USB drive and run a special tool. That may not be the case here, and it may be way easier than that, but I am just making a point that it may take some time for Taiko to get this to be user upgradeable. And that's not even covering the actual process of changing the firmware and testing it, which is way more complex.

I suspect it might be simpler to upgrade firmware with the taiko card installed in another computer. Having said that I recently upgraded firmware in a bunch of Chelsio T540 10G SFP cards which was relatively straightforward.

 

[gereric]

Lowering the temperature inside the server has a very audible effect. It does sound better when the temperature is lower. I've noticed this with my DIY servers, and it also applies to my Extreme.

So why Taiko didn't just add a fan inside the Extreme? The vibrations inside the server have a bad impact. Keep those vibrations away and you get better sound. The electrical noise from the fan is also audible. You can power it with a battery but then you still have vibrations.

Engineering is always full of compromises. And it's a balancing act. In the case of the Extreme, Taiko has put a lot of effort and money into the passive cooling solution. Massive copper heatsinks don't come cheap. I haven't seen a digital music server with better passive cooling solution than the Extreme. And yet, if you can get the inside of the Extreme a little cooler, there will be a positive effect. The question is if the net effect is positive or negative after the vibrations impact of the fan, electrical noise, etc. And it's not just the mechanical movement of the fan... the air movement inside the server is also causing vibrations.
I believe that a fan can have a positive impact and at $15 it's a cheap experiment to do. However, if you try a USB fan, do not connect the USB to the Extreme. I would use an external USB battery pack for the test. Similarly, if the fan connects to the mains, keep it away from your audio dedicated outlets.

On some level many of the improvements done on the server have a direct or indirect correlation to the heat. For example, by offloading some of the network processing from the server to the switch you have the NIC do less work, which also keeps it cooler. Also, when you have less packet processing, the CPU has to do less, and that also keeps it cooler. The difference a few packets make might be minimal and impossible to hear, but you keep optimizing the music server in a similar fashion ang things add up and start shaping better.

Funny to move away from the DIY world to the Extreme thread and to see so many DIY solutions in a couple of days . Well, it's much better than reading 5 pages of Fedex tracking updates every time I log in to catch up.

While on that topic, I hope people understand that updating firmware on a chip on a PCIe card from Windows is not a very simple thing to do. This is not just a simple driver update. It's not a simple matter of copying a file either. You have to replace a piece of code on a chip. The Operating system does not have native access to that chip. You are at the mercy of the tools provided by the chip manufacturer. Last time I have done something like this (not on the Extreme) I had to connect a keyboard and monitor, change BIOS settings, boot from a special USB drive and run a special tool. That may not be the case here, and it may be way easier than that, but I am just making a point that it may take some time for Taiko to get this to be user upgradeable. And that's not even covering the actual process of changing the firmware and testing it, which is way more complex.

I have 1.75” clearance between my rug and the bottom of the Extreme, and the fan is only 1” thick. The sound of the fan should be lower underneath, if it moves enough air from there to matter. My footers are Townshend Pods, ergo the height.

 

[Steve Williams]

And to think some people were giving me a hard time about the temperature I keep my house. . .

Steve Z

Steve

I would bet that living in your house proves to be a good exercise for your Dartos muscle.

 

[QuantumWave]

I switched on the Extreme, soothing music promptly filled the air, crisp and fresh. I had goose bumps like never before in the hot summer days, shrill in the spine. I was wrapped in a wooly blanket. This was music like never before … as never had I listened to my system in a cryostat and AC blasting to the max , no, that was definitely a first ! Some chip engineer must have been confused between Celsius and Fahrenheit (!)

 

[Christiaan Punter]

OT, but is there a rough estimate on the pricing of the digital interface and the BPS? Understand the router will be about 6k?

There is no projected price for the Digital Interface just yet.

We don’t have final pricing for the BPS yet but the full BPS may have a similar price as the Extreme itself.

Indeed, the router may be priced at around 6K.

 

[JanneW]

No holes in the bracket and top cover removed has been working 24/7 for days here. Not in a basement, not in Michigan or Minnesota.

Steve Z

To quote a famous composition: “And though the holes were rather small,
They had to count them all
Now they know how many holes it takes to fill (the bracket)…

 

[Nils]

There is no projected price for the Digital Interface just yet.

We don’t have final pricing for the BPS yet but the full BPS may have a similar price as the Extreme itself.

Indeed, the router may be priced at around 6K.

Question Regarding Taiko BPS
"For safety purposes, all connected devices will need to have a TPM (Trusted Platform Module) chip
installed with a Taiko key communicating with the BPS to enable a DC output."

Comment - an elegant solution to retain control over what devices that can be hooked up to the BPS.

Question - does the Extreme and the (Big) Switch already have a TPM chip?

 

[Taiko Audio]

Question Regarding Taiko BPS
"For safety purposes, all connected devices will need to have a TPM (Trusted Platform Module) chip
installed with a Taiko key communicating with the BPS to enable a DC output."

Comment - an elegant solution to retain control over what devices that can be hooked up to the BPS.

Question - does the Extreme and the (Big) Switch already have a TPM chip?

The TPM chip is necessary for high current outputs, meanwhile we have developed “low current” output options with integrated safety features for powering devices like switches, routers etc. The new regulator section for the Extreme which can be powered by an external BPS does indeed have a TPM chip installed.

 

[MusicFellow]

We don’t have final pricing for the BPS yet but the full BPS may have a similar price as the Extreme itself.

My hope is that this refers to the external BPS with it‘s own chassis and that the internal solution sheds some k‘s of the final pricing. Plus since existing owners get the trade-in value of their existing power supply, that this „low-cost“ upgrade option lands sub 20kish - at least a bit.

 

[Zeotrope]

My hope is that this refers to the external BPS with it‘s own chassis and that the internal solution sheds some k‘s of the final pricing. Plus since existing owners get the trade-in value of their existing power supply, that this „low-cost“ upgrade option lands sub 20kish - at least a bit.

My understanding is there will not be an internal BPS. I think it has to be external, especially if you want to power other devices. And there is likely a sonic benefit from keeping the AC to DC transformer outside the Extreme chassis.

 

[dminches]

My understanding is there will not be an internal BPS. I think it has to be external, especially if you want to power other devices. And there is likely a sonic benefit from keeping the AC to DC transformer outside the Extreme chassis.

That is not true.

Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

For those Extreme customers that do not opt for the BPS, the DC section of the new power supply system is an upgrade over the existing one in the Extreme. That has already been stated earlier in this thread. What is the "new power supply section"? I didn't realize there was a non-BPS power...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[Steve Williams]

My understanding is there will not be an internal BPS. I think it has to be external, especially if you want to power other devices. And there is likely a sonic benefit from keeping the AC to DC transformer outside the Extreme chassis.

Where did you read that. I read that there will be a new one box Extreme with the Bps. The dimensions are said to be 1” deeper all around and IIRC Emile posted it wounds sigh about 165pounds.

 

[Zeotrope]

@dminches I think you are referring to having the improved power supply from the BPS in the Extreme chassis. That was mentioned as an option, but that is not battery power.

From the PDF:

Is the footprint of the BPS the same as the switch and router?
No, the BPS is larger. We're also designing a mini BPS, aimed to launch in May, but that would need to be twice as large. It could be the same width + height but twice as deep. We're currently trying to fit the BMS on a PCB to make this possible.
The BPS for the Extreme is much larger. It will need a large amount of cells to be able to get a workable amount on playing time (and require a charge only once every 24 hours).

If you convert an original Extreme to a 2-box battery powered version, do you plan to leave the original case as is, remove the current PS and have a 2nd box with the battery?
There are several options. You can keep your current extreme chassis and add the external BPS and there will be some chassis options for that. If you would like to have a dual matching Extreme chassis that will be very costly. A dual alternative chassis is another option and that will be cheaper. In that case the BPS could just be in a different chassis.