Are you able to make a room analysis using REW or something similar? I have had clients that spent quite a bit of time adjusting the positioning of their speakers and acoustic treatments and were able to achieve spectacularly good measured results both in terms of frequency response smoothness and measured clarity and articulation. It was more than I thought possible. They reported it sounding as fantastic as it measured so I don't doubt that it can be worth the effort to work hard on getting it right. I should note that these rooms were already measuring quite good to start with. I have yet to see a room that started off with bad measurements that went to exemplary by simply working on placement. Well, other than going to a very nearfield listening arrangement.
The argument for/against room treatment
- Thread starter MadFloyd
- Start date
Sorry, Tim, I don't even know what a REW is. My experience actually working with bass is limited to the 3 rooms I mentioned above plus 3 exhibiting rooms at audio shows about 10 years ago. At those shows I did a pretty good job with the speaker positioning but they were never "in the zone".
But if I had or if any other exhibitor were able to dial-in their speakers at any show, I imagine that room would be filled with visitors all day long and not for the bling. I'm sure there's a vendor or 3 that might have the knack for quickly dialing in a speaker / subwoofer within a few days but I've yet to hear any room where it was actually achieved. And as I'm sure you know, there are plenty of vendors who bring their acoustic treatments with them to the show.
I get that some will say wonderful things about bass all day long as it's the nature of this hobby. But in all my endeavors, a truly superior / musical bass remains one of the rarest things around and though I've not gotten out much in the past few years, I've yet to hear it elsewhere. In fact, I've only read about a couple of people achieving it and with a little reading between the lines I'm guessing they found it. That's how rare it is, IMO. And even in those few cases, I don't recall a single instance where they attributed their supposedly phenomenal bass to acoustic treatments. Moreover, in my limited observation of various threads in this forum it seems most are unaware of any such distinction between a nice reasonable bass and a superior / musical bass.
So IMO, we're talking something rather rare and that makes it rather unlikely we're talking apples-to-apples. Can some tool assist in this regard? I certainly hope so but for me it's mostly a crapshoot. If some tool could be used to truly transform an average me-too bass into a vastly superior musical bass, well, there's certainly enough enthusiasts and wealth in the industry for many to be singing its praising and I've just not heard of that.
In fact, if such a tool could truly transform the bass, I'd guess that every last vendor at every last audio show would be using that tool to ensure they weren't left behind during the exhibit. Exhibiting at a show is grueling and getting things right means absolutely everything to some vendors. Because a truly musical bass does far more than just greatly improve the bass i.e. it also greatly improves the entire presention in at least several ways I can only imagine if vendors exhbiting at shows had this ability to dial-in the bass, such an achievement could easily overshadow many other shortcomings their systems may exhibit. It's that big a deal. But again I've yet to hear of such overwhelming news at shows.
The last show I attended was 10 years ago and even then probably 90% of the rooms were rather sub-par in most categories includng the bass and I'm guessing the same is relatively true today. So I have to assume either the technology/product isn't quite there yet, or if it does exist, we don't yet fully understand how to use it, or some combination of the two.
So again, I'm left to assume we're talking apples-to-oranges with regard to any sonic benefits of speaker placement where some must rely on treatments and others don't.
Last edited:
BTW, Tim, I can see that you're a big proponent of measurements. For various reasons I'm not and frankly I'm a bit leary of those who are as well as those who are committed to acoustic treatments. Come to think of it, most anything of significance in high-end audio that I subscribe to usually runs quite contrary to most others' line of thinking. But that's me and that's a whole nuther rabbit hole.
You mentioned earlier about providing a video of your own to demonstrate the sonic impacts of room treatments. Below is a an in-room recording of a 1980's artist where in-room db peaks were about 104db. It's not the best bass in the world but I think this helps substantiate my point a bit. Bear in mind that my iPhone is mounted to a 35 year old lightweight aluminum tripod that sits 3 feet in front of me and hopefully that helps explain the visual effects in the video. I've no idea what anybody listens with e.g. earbuds, headphones, etc when listening to these in-room recordings, but I think the visual effects induced at the lightweight tripod help illustrate the type of bass I'm trying to describe. For example. You might notice the quickness of the bass impacts (more a jolt than a shake unless multiple bass notes) at the iPhone. Full screen viewing will show impacts much better.
Where earbuds and headphones seem to be no match for the in-room bass experience, I think the visual impact helps compensate for the lack of sonic impact my recording may have. If the camera is the recipient of these impacts, you can bet the in-room listener is too. It's not just this piece. Any piece recorded with any type of pronounced bass will be much like this example. Implying there's really nothing special about this particular piece.
You mentioned earlier that maybe you could come up with a video to share about the effects of room treatments providing superior levels of musicality. How about instead providing an in-room video with some type of pronounced bass and room treatments after room analysis? Maybe we can try comparing them a bit and discuss potential bass differences / similarities? At least for my edification.
BTW, I forgot to mention. In my 3rd room and current room where I gave up on locating a superior speaker placement, a while back I purchased a 15-inch rhythmik subwoofer with plenty of toggle switches / knobs to try to dial-in the bass. I kinda' gave up on that too but every so often I'd try reading between the lines just one more time and one day, poof!!! the subwoofer - rather the bass - was now in the zone without moving it a single millimeter since the day I purchased it some years earlier. I had initially installed the sub in what I thought was the best reasonable location and I was committed not to move it. Anyway, since that day, I'd been fine tuning the subwoofer even further every so often as well as lining up the speakers with the subwoofer which also made significant improvements. IOW, I crossed over to the other side of the bass fence only by tuning/dialing-in the subwoofer. Not the speakers nor subwoofer placement, much, to my surprise. Which I suppose goes to show I really don't know what I'm doing or at least don't quite understand how to get there. Which itself may be of benefit because then I try things I otherwise might not.
Good Morning.. I remember you discussing your subwoofer issues in another thread. I then started Reading about rhyhtmik subs and decided to try my SB2000 svs sub I had laying around doing HT duties in another room. So now I tried it in my main music system. I set the sub low pass down to its lowest point, turned the volume up a quarter, putting the sealed box sub inline w the speakers. Left phase at 0. My room is 23‘ x 19’ x 13’ ceiling And wide open to the 3 other rooms and a hallway. I recently changed up my room moving my speakers from the narrow wall to along the long Wall. It changed my sound in a big way. Much better soundstage in all dimensions. My right speaker came alive with upper frequencies and detail that were missing.. the reason because of some absorption panels I have on that one sidewall. As I have been following this thread and picking up some tips and learning new things to try.. So I could use a bit more bass but was not convinced I could integrate it well enough and haven’t tried till now. my speakers go down to 40Hz or so, so I’m looking for that bottom heft and weight.. so far I’m not happy w it and have it off.. just seems a bit muddy even at a Low levels. I wasn’t expecting it to just blend In or work right out of the gate.. but it did bring an overall nice “difference “ to the sound.. but I need something more qualified For the task.. See what you started
Good morning, Mikem. I didn't start nuthin!!! But sometimes I can't help but respond to others who do.Good Morning.. I remember you discussing your subwoofer issues in another thread. I then started Reading about rhyhtmik subs and decided to try my SB2000 svs sub I had laying around doing HT duties in another room. So now I tried it in my main music system. I set the sub low pass down to its lowest point, turned the volume up a quarter, putting the sealed box sub inline w the speakers. Left phase at 0. My room is 23‘ x 19’ x 13’ ceiling And wide open to the 3 other rooms and a hallway. I recently changed up my room moving my speakers from the narrow wall to along the long Wall. It changed my sound in a big way. Much better soundstage in all dimensions. My right speaker came alive with upper frequencies and detail that were missing.. the reason because of some absorption panels I have on that one sidewall. As I have been following this thread and picking up some tips and learning new things to try.. So I could use a bit more bass but was not convinced I could integrate it well enough and haven’t tried till now. my speakers go down to 40Hz or so, so I’m looking for that bottom heft and weight.. so far I’m not happy w it and have it off.. just seems a bit muddy even at a Low levels. I wasn’t expecting it to just blend In or work right out of the gate.. but it did bring an overall nice “difference “ to the sound.. but I need something more qualified For the task.. See what you started
The good news is this type of bass is free to all - as near as I can tell anyway. Provided the equipment is sufficient to cover the bass frequencies in question.
If you'd like to compare notes and/or config's feel free to pm me and I'd be happy to see if I can assist. I keep waiting for one of the bass experts to open a thread like, "Striving to Achieve a Musical Bass That's Free To All - 101 Basics" or something like that, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
It really is regrettable that this is not more widely known, especially since it is free and not just for the well-heeled - though it seems just as rare to them. IMO, achieving this level of musical bass, though not so easy for me, is a playback system's second biggest game changer I'm aware of and it's huge in my book. IOW, if/when achieved, a playback system is already half-way there. Wherever there is, it can be achieved without room acoustic treatments.
Last edited:
Yes I did! Great guess. I will stick with a conventional set-up waveguides for now! That's more down Duke's path. I must admit it is an interesting idea and I hope when covid dies down a bit more I can go listen to his speakers.
Rob
I am an enthusiast for long wall - it usually takes side wall reflections out of the equation and give a more precise and expansive soundstage because of less smearing of upper frequency levels - plus rear and front walls can be more easily dealt with. I think the ceiling is the next surface to look at for preventing early reflections unless you have wonderful tall ceilings.Yes I did! Great guess. I will stick with a conventional set-up waveguides for now! That's more down Duke's path. I must admit it is an interesting idea and I hope when covid dies down a bit more I can go listen to his speakers.
Rob
I am sure you are not alone in looking into Dukes speakers
Cheers
Phil
I decided not so long ago to start equipping a music listening corner in my house and read so many things that I am sure of the need for acoustic treatment, but I am still learning all the subtleties of this procedure, I hope to find a lot of useful information here.
I must confess that I do think measurements can be useful. The hope in using them is to reduce what we perceive as good sound down to some kind of easily, reliably reproduceable and affordable technology. I know that sometimes the measurements don't seem to correlate well with what we're perceiving but that's good info in and of itself. I knew a cyclist that kept track of his heart rate while he raced and trained for years, along with his power output and overall performance. What he learned was that he couldn't use his heart rate like a speedometer. It varied too much from day to day for the same power output. Somedays he could run it much higher for a longer period of time. In the end he concluded that monitoring his heart rate was of limited usefulness. It could tell you if you were having a bad day but there wasn't much you could do about it.
That's a lot of shaking of that lightweight ancient tripod! So yup, it must be loud in there.
I agree that measurements can be useful. In the right hands and provided we're measuring the right things for the right purpose. But far too many times in high-end audio it seems people are measuring stuff that's meaningless. Not you but in general.
But it's good to hear that you have some reservations about measurements as I think we'd all be better off performance-wise if we just questioned things a bit more rather than buy into something hook, line, and sinker.
Yeah, it's a bit loud but it's very clean so it actually doesn't sound that loud at all. But loud isn't the point here. Musical bass is and whether it can be achieved via analyzing room measurements and apply acoustic treatments according to whomever or if it's possible by superior speaker positioning alone. And which method is superior.
At elevator volume levels nothing moves there to illustrate a superior bass there has to be a minimum amount of volume anyway. But here it's not the loudness, but rather it's the visual impact and especially the severity of the impact with each bass note. If I played this piece on another system at these same volume levels and the speakers were not in a superior location, there most likely be zero movement at the lightweight tripod. If I were to move my speakers around the room a bit, there'd also probably no visual impact either.
You had mentioned that you had customers singing praises for what the acoustic treatments have done after analyzing the measurements. Could any of those customers generate an in-room video similar to this one at any volume level? IOW, you were speaking as though we were discussing apple and apples.
BTW, it's not the loudness here that's the focus here but rather the quickness, the severity of impact, the definition, depth, etc. I call this a superior / musical bass that is separate and distinct from the average middle-of-the-road bass. This is just an average example. What really is exciting is when bass not too dissimilar from this exists on some 50's and 60's recordings. More importantly and to the best of my knowledge, no acoustic treatment in the world can cause this but only superior speaker placement and/or subwoofer placement / tuning. It's truly free provided the speakers are full range and/or the subwoofer can be positioned / dialed in.
Tim, maybe this in-room recording will demonstrate a bit better a systematic speed, impact, depth, and definition of a superior / musical bass and without room acoustic treatments. By all means, crank up the volume a bit for max effect.
I’ve been trying to optimise my room acoustics for years. My room sound good with limited low frequency extension speaker but full range speakers sound terrible with a good proportion of recordings. Bass accentuation at different frequencies for different recordings. Presently I have problems at either 45 , 63 , 72 , 91 and even 110 hz Even built a specific room with optimal dimension and ratio .First I over damped my room . Then added Heimholtz resonators. Then changed bass traps .Added diffusers. Yet it is very difficult to tame frequencies below 110 hZ. My thinking is that it might be impossible to fight the laws of physics as the wave needs optimal distances for different frequencies. Furthermore I find it difficult to imagine if approx 50 feet is needed for a 10 hz wave to fully form , how is it possible to obtain this in a smaller space. I cannot figure how DSP solves the problem, for it minimises a troublesome frequency . This means that frequency wave is not being produced or its amplitude is reduced , rendering it silent, which is far from ideal. These are my thoughts as a layman. Looking forward to opinions.
Last edited:
I have upper bass hump which drives me nuts. The rest of the audio band is clean. I wish I could call my system ideal and enjoy all my CDs
FWIW, I had an upper bass hump that I always thought was a room issue. I swapped out a couple of IC's and the problem went away. Honestly, I never would have thought that but I will say this.....I don't miss it.
Tom
Tom
What I always thought was an opaque colouration/lack of transparency from my Zus has been proved to be mainly room-related as for 7 years in my old space I could never get even close to addressing it, but in the new room it was 50% sorted on day one, even prior to any optimised setup/positioning, and is close to marginal or negligible as an issue now I've made further efforts into nailing acoustics down.
I've installed a suite of PET boards as absorber/diffusers on descending eaves, front and side walls, and critical uptick from filling an access hatch that communicated my large listening space w the even larger living space below with acoustic Rockwool, plus custom extra large PETs-faced sheeps wool front corner bass traps.
Just same traps in my rear corners left to go.
The lack of smear and hash is impossible to not notice. Way more extended and clean in lower frequencies, clearer and more communicative in mids and treble.
If anything in this hobby has been a total conversion from skeptic to wide (wild?)-eyed believer, it's the role of room acoustics.
I've installed a suite of PET boards as absorber/diffusers on descending eaves, front and side walls, and critical uptick from filling an access hatch that communicated my large listening space w the even larger living space below with acoustic Rockwool, plus custom extra large PETs-faced sheeps wool front corner bass traps.
Just same traps in my rear corners left to go.
The lack of smear and hash is impossible to not notice. Way more extended and clean in lower frequencies, clearer and more communicative in mids and treble.
If anything in this hobby has been a total conversion from skeptic to wide (wild?)-eyed believer, it's the role of room acoustics.
You might want to consider the services of Mitch Barnett, https://accuratesound.ca
From what I've heard, DSP, done right can be very effective with a problem like yours.
Once I get my speakers optimally positioned for best bass in my room, I'm planning to refine it with DSP.
You might want to look at the threads of acoustical engineer tmallin who is one of the room acoustics experts on this forum:
tmallin
www.whatsbestforum.com
He maintains that you do not need large spaces for the bass wave to form - you can get good bass in a small room. Also take a look at my thread "Trying the ZR Acoustics Panels". I have tested and deployed a new room treatment technology used primarily in pro audio with great results.
Yes. Acoustical treatment with physical devices demands that the dimensions of those products approach the size of the wavelengths to be threated. As you can imagine, for low frequencies, it can mean impractically bulky devices. Alternatives are tuned devices which have specified and often narrow bandwidths.
Yes. DSP is the most effective way to deal with low frequencies although analog partisans will be deterred by it. There are many options depending on system configuration. Alternatively,......................................
or other experts. Let me suggest Acoustic Frontiers (http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/).
Similar threads
