Kal-A digital-only person, "even today" as you put it who formerly owned and listened to analog has a perspective to draw on when forming conclusions about the different mediums and I never meant to imply anything different. The quality of the analog owned once upon a time can have a serious impact on the perspective however.
I would surmise that despite our differences we would like to hink that Live music is the reference. Not analog, in itself simply a reproduction method. Based on this premise, the perspective would be how close the current method of reproduction be it analog or digital or any other yet to be discovered, is to the real event.
Speaking for myself I experienced an excellent analog : Basis Debut with Graham 2, Koetsu or lyra Cartridges on Vibraplane platform. I also had Revox A77 and B77 R2Rs ... my opinion remains that you can get "Big Sound" from both analog and digital ...
rbbert-I never put a price tag on it so I wasn't implying any set dollar value. I just didn't want someone who used his records as a lunch plate and once owned a Kenner Close-and-Play with a quarter taped to the tonearm to be spouting off about how analog sounds.
I would surmise that despite our differences we would like to hink that Live music is the reference. Not analog, in itself simply a reproduction method. Based on this premise, the perspective would be how close the current method of reproduction be it analog or digital or any other yet to be discovered, is to the real event.
Speaking for myself I experienced an excellent analog : Basis Debut with Graham 2, Koetsu or lyra Cartridges on Vibraplane platform. I also had Revox A77 and B77 R2Rs ... my opinion remains that you can get "Big Sound" from both analog and digital ...
Frantz-First of all, some of us can agree that live music is the reference. I am certainly in that camp. I originally made a flip comment about people who either never owned analog or never owned decent analog can't really know how good it can sound. Of course I know that you are someone that had a very nice analog set up at one time. You made ths switch to digital and apparently haven't looked back and I respect that. You made an informed decision and that is all I was really getting at in the first place. No argument from me that you can get the big sound from either digital or analog. I think you know by now that I find myself in agreement with you more times than not.
rbbert-I never put a price tag on it so I wasn't implying any set dollar value. I just didn't want someone who used his records as a lunch plate and once owned a Kenner Close-and-Play with a quarter taped to the tonearm to be spouting off about how analog sounds.
I never used albums as lunch plates, but in the day I had a special purpose for the folding album covers. FWIW, my turntable was a Thorens and I had a penchant for Grado cartridges when I was personally into vinyl.
Tim-with regards to the folding LP covers, I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you are talking about. I have owned several Grado cartridges over the years but have not heard one since sometime in the 1980s. Once I switched to MC cartridges, I never looked back at the MM/MI breed.
There's an Art of Noise track (don't know which album) which has a speedway car mixed in which does exactly what you talk of. The car comes in from the left and hits the accelerator hard, right in between the speakers. Your ears ring and you can smell the petrol fumes ...
There's an Art of Noise track (don't know which album) which has a speedway car mixed in which does exactly what you talk of. The car comes in from the left and hits the accelerator hard, right in between the speakers. Your ears ring and you can smell the petrol fumes ...
i have a few 'techno' Lps/CD's with some 'car sounds' and those can be fun and 'big' sounding....so i get what you mean.
but if you have ever heard (or can imagine) an FI engine lighting off inside a garage and are able to 'even to a small degree' recreate that in your system; it's a mind-blower. in real life everyone wears ear protection. almost like a commercial jet engine.
a race car engine is like a series of explosions.....the ground rumbles, it shreiks, the sense of power and space is palpable. the room instantly pressurizes (assuming your speakers can move enough air quickly and precisely enough).
I never used albums as lunch plates, but in the day I had a special purpose for the folding album covers. FWIW, my turntable was a Thorens and I had a penchant for Grado cartridges when I was personally into vinyl.
Mike-all this talk about the sound of race cars and finding surprises inside of folding LP covers reminds me of the movie Talladega Nights. In particular, the scene where Ricky Bobby's dad proclaims that all he has left in life is his fast car and a bunch of sweet, stinky weed. And then Ricky Bobby's boys pipe up, "How much do you want for that sweet, stinky weed old man?"
And P.S. I have been to both an F1 race as well as Nascar races and you are right about how damn loud they are in person. The engines from F1 and Nascar sound very different, but you need to wear hearing protection while watching either one.
Tim-with regards to the folding LP covers, I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you are talking about. I have owned several Grado cartridges over the years but have not heard one since sometime in the 1980s. Once I switched to MC cartridges, I never looked back at the MM/MI breed.
The Thorens still had a Grado on it when I packed it away sometime in the early 90s. It still sounded better than bad CDs, but not as good as the good ones. YMMV.
The original CD or the original vinyl? The original CD is not a good transfer. A little EQ can help a lot, but I suppose, in a sense, that's a "remaster."
And P.S. I have been to both an F1 race as well as Nascar races and you are right about how damn loud they are in person. The engines from F1 and Nascar sound very different, but you need to wear hearing protection while watching either one.
my favorite track on 'Open Pipe Symphony' is called 'The Imaginary Race'....you hear a NASCAR race car start up in the pits, it idles and spits for a minute bliping the throttle. then an F1 engine fires to life and it's throttle is blipped a couple times and it shrieks. the first time i heard this i just smiled my F1 lovin head off.
then they both take off and.....you guessed it, the F1 comes back around the track waaaay ahead.
The original CD or the original vinyl? The original CD is not a good transfer. A little EQ can help a lot, but I suppose, in a sense, that's a "remaster."
i can tell you that the Classic Records 45rpm remaster has a huge soundstage; but i don't have the original. my room was designed by Chris Huston, who was one of the engineers on Led Zepplin II. sorry for that bit of trivia but it just popped into my head for some reason.
Yep, that's exactly what you get on that Art Of Noise track I mentioned earlier -- I think it's actually called Speedway, no, maybe, it's Race, I'm not sure. Fantastic stuff in a lounge room ...
Bill-I think I already told you that I don't know you and therefore my comments couldn't have been directed at you personally. Somehow I rubbed a nerve raw with you and I never intended to. Me do thinks you protest too much. I have apologized to you as much as I'm going to apologize. You need to let it go-I have.
i purchased a different home and built a room in a barn (partially) because i wanted a system that was capable of doing a 'big' sound.....space.....deep bass....and big time ambience and bass decay. to me it's the ability of a system to lay down that ambient foundation, which takes fairly deep bass and a low noise floor as well as the ability to move some air in a linear way.
of course; it took 6 years in the new room to actually figure out how to get all those things to happen.
when a recording has a 'big' sound, i'm confident i can now get that sound.
this does happen more with analog than with digital, but it's more a matter of degrees of this than one can and one cannot.
i find that my 45rpm Lps seem to most consistently be able to throw an enormous soundstage and energize every molecule in the room. i had 5.1 multi-channel SACD in the room for about 18 months, and some of those could really fill the room. but the 45rpm's do some things with 'big-ness' thay even multi-channel did not do in terms of endless decay.
the one recording that comes to mind in terms of a 'big' sound is actually not even music; it's a redbook CD called 'Open Pipe Symphony'. it's 16 tracks of race cars on the track and in a garage. musical instruments are toys compared to what how a raceing engine can throw off low frequencies and reasonance. you can cut the ambience with a knife. you feel it in your bones.
