where i've directly compared 45rpm Lps to 15ips master dubs of the same recording i've found that they generally soundstage somewhat differently. the 45's typically are percieved as subjectively bigger sounding (taller, wider, more spacey) whereas the 15ips tapes are generally a bit deeper, more layered, more precise and have more information....but are just a little smaller overall. these differences are not huge, but are consistent. understand that we are talking Rockport Sirius III soundstaging here, likely the pinnacle of stage solidity and space. for instance my Dobbins Garrard 301 does not approach the soundstage size of the Rockport, yet it's not chopped liver.
a race car engine is like a series of explosions.....the ground rumbles, it shreiks, the sense of power and space is palpable. the room instantly pressurizes (assuming your speakers can move enough air quickly and precisely enough).
where i've directly compared 45rpm Lps to 15ips master dubs of the same recording i've found that they generally soundstage somewhat differently. the 45's typically are percieved as subjectively bigger sounding (taller, wider, more spacey) whereas the 15ips tapes are generally a bit deeper, more layered, more precise and have more information....but are just a little smaller overall. these differences are not huge, but are consistent. understand that we are talking Rockport Sirius III soundstaging here, likely the pinnacle of stage solidity and space. for instance my Dobbins Garrard 301 does not approach the soundstage size of the Rockport, yet it's not chopped liver.
I guess it's the differences in tables/arm/cartridge. In my system, with the best tapes, the soundstage width is frightening wide and certainly don't hear any shrinkage But agree on the other aspects of tape; sometimes, it bring tears to one's eyes!
where i've directly compared 45rpm Lps to 15ips master dubs of the same recording i've found that they generally soundstage somewhat differently. the 45's typically are percieved as subjectively bigger sounding (taller, wider, more spacey) whereas the 15ips tapes are generally a bit deeper, more layered, more precise and have more information....but are just a little smaller overall.
This is what I don't get. If the masters are identical then they should have the same soundstage, irrespective. I can understand some compression for LP in the bass, but otherwise the dynamic ranges match roughly.
The analogue version of Bonnie M's stuff has miserable bass bite on my friend's pretty nice setup, through very nice Naim speakers and amp, compared to CD. There is where the dynamic range thing comes through loud and clear ...
Myles/Mike-I guess I have never listened for the soundstage differences between 33 1/3 vs. 45 RPM LPs or either one to tape. Really good 45 RPM LPs do have a "bigness" to them and I always attributed some of that to cutting at 45 RPM with only a few songs per side in order to maximize the dynamic range and bass information cut into the grooves. On the other hand, when I listen to a good 33 1/3 RPM LP, I don't feel like there is a huge drop-off from the 45. 15 ips 2 track tape can be jaw-dropping in so many repects and I would hate to tie it all down to soundstage size.
I guess it's the differences in tables/arm/cartridge. In my system, with the best tapes, the soundstage width is frightening wide and certainly don't hear any shrinkage But agree on the other aspects of tape; sometimes, it bring tears to one's eyes!
All this talk of R2R makes me want to have one of the top Prosumer units for my room. Unfortunately there isn't that much music that I would probably want availabie for R2R at this point.
This is what I don't get. If the masters are identical then they should have the same soundstage, irrespective. I can understand some compression for LP in the bass, but otherwise the dynamic ranges match roughly.
The analogue version of Bonnie M's stuff has miserable bass bite on my friend's pretty nice setup, through very nice Naim speakers and amp, compared to CD. There is where the dynamic range thing comes through loud and clear ...
I guess it's the differences in tables/arm/cartridge. In my system, with the best tapes, the soundstage width is frightening wide and certainly don't hear any shrinkage But agree on the other aspects of tape; sometimes, it bring tears to one's eyes!
the way i'd put it is that the 15ips tape is more real, and many times much more real. on the Rockport the 45's are bigger.....sometimes bigger than real. mostly i like 'bigger than real'.
All this talk of R2R makes me want to have one of the top Prosumer units for my room. Unfortunately there isn't that much music that I would probably want availabie for R2R at this point.
I would have thought by now you would have realised there was a touch of sarcasm in my comment ... (I'm being very careful now, one only)
Depending on the time of day and what they had for breakfast, people say distortion matters, or it doesn't matter. The HP gear loaded up to the roof types say everything's been sorted out, hook the component to $100K worth of test gear, and you will be told when it has its periods, if you want ...
As people who listen to music know, EVERYTHING MATTERS. Gee, when the testing guy hooked up that test gear did he use OFCC leads, with triple gold plated contacts, use isopropyl alcohol to clean the probes, and I bet he didn't use silver paste!!
Yes, I believe distortion matters, distortion is always audible, and different media mix in different soups of sludge, sorry, distortion, into the sound ...
I can personally attest to the fact that MikeL's room lacks nothing for bass quantity. More importantly, the low frequencies are of great quality; well controlled with terrific detail and texture. I'd rather give up a few Hz of frequency extension for better tonal quality. Personally, I don't listen to organ music (or cannons), so ability to reproduce this matters less to me as compared to hearing the styles of John Clayton, Ray Brown and Christian McBride on "SuperBass". As long as there is a visceral component to the low frequencies I'm happy...I don't need to look like the guy in the Maxell tape ad!
One surprising thing I am finding as I upgraded my preamplification is how critical this part of the chain is for bass extension and quality, especially for my analog rig. The ability of electronics to adapt to the speed of music is more important than I ever realized. It allows you to hear the overtones and decays as seperate, unique elements; not simply as a vague, conglomerated sound. This occurs throughout the frequency bandwidth and is quite startling with brass and hi-hats.
Another observation for the thread: why is it that no one wants to show off the high frequency extension of their systems, i.e with a piercing squeal?
The ability of electronics to adapt to the speed of music is more important than I ever realized. It allows you to hear the overtones and decays as seperate, unique elements; not simply as a vague, conglomerated sound. This occurs throughout the frequency bandwith and is quite startling with brass and hi-hats.
Another observation for the thread: why is it that no one wants to show off the high frequency extension of their systems, i.e with a piercing squeal?
This is all SO very, very, very true! If people spent 1/10th of the money getting the treble right that they spend on the bass they would migrate from a Chevy sedan to a Porsche. Sad, but true!
Jazzdoc-You just struck a chord with me (no pun intended) with regards to the importance of the preamp. I just took a peek at your system (thanks for listing it) and I have to admit your phono section and preamp are brands I have never heard of. However, I know they are tube-based. Last week while listening to music I came to realize anew how "fast" a good tube preamp sounds and what that does for the music. For some, this will be the opposite of their belief system, but tubes done right in a preamp are indeed fast. They just seem to get out of the way of the music and let it flow unimpeded. I will return to this at a later time and say more. I couldn't agree more with your comments on the brass and hi-hats. If you are lucky enough to own the D2D LP of "For Duke," when that cornet comes in, if that doesn't startle you and cut through you like a brass instrument does when heard live then something is very wrong in mudville. This is just one example I can think of right off. The cymbal work on most jazz LPs is also stunning as are the rest of the drums. I am really turning into a jazz lover. I find the music intoxicating.
I have found that the Preamp can be the heart of and perhaps the most important part of the electronics in a system. That is, it is more important to the overall sound than the amps, CD player, DAC, and even the Phono Preamp (unless running the Phono Preamp direcetly into the amp), or the Turntable. The turntable and the Phono Preamp come right after the Preamp.
I have been listening more to CD than I have to vinyl for ease of operation and just replaced the silver IC cables between my preamp and my amp. I have to say, that making that one change has made a world of difference in the overall presentation of the soundstage and imaging of the system. The highs including the chimes, cymbals, etc. along with the midrange and bass have all just better fallen into place.
when that cornet comes in, if that doesn't startle you and cut through you like a brass instrument does when heard live then something is very wrong in mudville. This is just one example I can think of right off. The cymbal work on most jazz LPs is also stunning as are the rest of the drums
The Classic Records single sided 45 RPMs are very dynamic and huge. Downside is you have to get out of the chair a lot.
I'm still a bedroom DJ so I have a sizable collection of House and Trance 12" singles. Going from a track on 45 to one on 33 1/3 requires EQ adjustments during the mix lest the energy level of the music droop.
Wholeheartedly agree with your comments about how 'fast' and 'tubes' seems counter-intuitive. But having mercury rectifiers in the power supplies has really blown away my standard preconceptions.
Not only that, the frequency bandwidth is really quite incredible...it's not just about getting the mid-range right. Now I'm getting gorgeous, tonally rich, articulate and deep bass in my room, i.e. 'the big sound'. I really had no idea about the terrific the low frequency extension of the Ulysses and I've auditioned them with many excellent solid state amps. I've been in the hobby for 30 years, but up until a few months ago I had no idea what a great tube set up could achieve.
These are key words that say to me, not that the bass is working well, but the treble is. Disconnect the tweeter temporarily, and you will hear that good bass sound disintegrate completely ...
Nothing throws a soundstage like them!
