The big sound

[JackD201]

For those imagining 'big sound', you might enjoy watching the Philips EL6471 1000W tube amplifier.

There's something about watching merc vapour rectifiers conduct in time to Widor's Symphony Nr. 5 that's nearly magical.

WHAT AN ABSOLUTE TRIP!

makes me wish I could build one with the Mercs and power tubes in full view! Thanks Mark

 

[tony ky ma]

Jack, merc vapour rectifier is not easy to handle, you need two for full wave, also needs a 2.5v 10A transformer to light it on, number of NOS is getting less and less every day, once when it all done will be forever, no more exist in this world. you need have enough stocks for rest of your life if you use them.
tony ma

 

[JackD201]

I still have a pair for the JE Lab 300B monos. I should save them then!

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

The amplifier runs on 3 phase power, hence six rectifiers for full wave operation on all three phases.

 

[microstrip]

Jack, merc vapour rectifier is not easy to handle, you need two for full wave, also needs a 2.5v 10A transformer to light it on, number of NOS is getting less and less every day, once when it all done will be forever, no more exist in this world. you need have enough stocks for rest of your life if you use them.
tony ma

Tony,
Considering life time of old tube electronics I think the opposite.
The number of existing devices using these components is very low and there are enough stocks of them to keep them working long after we leave this world. Besides, using these old technologies you can adapt the circuits for comparable devices and a good service man will keep them working for long.

However, most modern gear, even very expensive equipment is being sent to the dump just because many digital programmable integrated circuits are no more available. Happily my Studer A80 only uses 74LS series ICs, that are still easily available anywhere!

 

[JackD201]

Mark, looks like even if I could get one, I couldn't use it

 

[DonH50]

I don't think I ever heard of tubes not being "fast". My old tube preamp had gobs of bandwidth (and many volts of output) long before the SS components and designs caught up... That said, most tube amps (from Dynaco and Eico through ARC, CJ, Futterman and Jadis with many others along the way, including a few home-brew jobs) I have heard have problems driving heavy loads, particularly in the low frequencies.

I agree with Frank's comment above about needed the treble to balance the bass, but isn't that the point of the very first post -- you need a full-range system? The debate then began...

Mark, you are just a monster, man! Now, all the rest of us who have a three-phase power feed into our house, raise your hands? Hmmm...? Thought so!

 

[microstrip]

That said, most tube amps (from Dynaco and Eico through ARC, CJ, Futterman and Jadis with many others along the way, including a few home-brew jobs) I have heard have problems driving heavy loads, particularly in the low frequencies.

Very true, but why are people using them to drive heavy loads?
Every amplifier should be used with an appropriate speaker. Who would try to drive the one ohm impedance Apogee Scintilla with a Pioneer receiver?

 

[tony ky ma]

The amplifier runs on 3 phase power, hence six rectifiers for full wave operation on all three phases.

No wonder the blue light flesh, in our use of 2 phase no fleshing . I know 3 phase is better 2 phase but one 3 phase power supply to a stereo amp is better than two 2 phase like a mono block ? I am not sure, I would like to have a chance to compare !
tony ma

 

[tony ky ma]

Tony,
Considering life time of old tube electronics I think the opposite.
The number of existing devices using these components is very low and there are enough stocks of them to keep them working long after we leave this world. Besides, using these old technologies you can adapt the circuits for comparable devices and a good service man will keep them working for long.

However, most modern gear, even very expensive equipment is being sent to the dump just because many digital programmable integrated circuits are no more available. Happily my Studer A80 only uses 74LS series ICs, that are still easily available anywhere!

Hi Microstrip
Not all the old tubes can last the same long life time depend on what kind of design and how to use them, El34 KT88 6550 etc, 5 years in normal use is a very good one lucky they still in production but rocket price for NOS, 866A mercury rectifier is a very old version in rectifier tube (quality control not too good) needs a lot of preparation before to fire, in our amp most the problems is from them, another type gas fill rectifier 3B25 or 3B28 can replace without change anything but sound a little different. I don't worry about my transmitting tubes, and I believe their life time must longer than mine because using in audio with their standard , quantity of NOS tube is limited if Main Land of China stare this hobby, you never know how long can the stocks last, like the Japanese fire the rocket of the WE300B's price 20 years ago
tony ma

 

[DonH50]

Very true, but why are people using them to drive heavy loads?
Every amplifier should be used with an appropriate speaker. Who would try to drive the one ohm impedance Apogee Scintilla with a Pioneer receiver?

Was this rhetorical? Maybe they like the sound, maybe theirs are good enough to drive them, I certainly don't know. All I can share is my own experience.

BTW, one of the tube amp makers back then did rewind an output transformer to drive 1 and 2 ohm loads. Don't recall which one... It made the upper end on those Apogees sound sweet, but I still thought the bass was "loose". And, of course, years ago McIntosh used a tapped balun at the output of their SS amps (don't know if they still do; I suspect not).

Disclaimer: This may all be the musings of a faulty memory, but I'm not sure, can't rightly recollect it all...

 

[Ethan Winer]

Not my point Ethan. I didn't mean to imply you have nothing analog in your playback chain, but rather some people can't play back any analog medium be it LP or tape.

Ah, sorry, I missed that. I have an old POS cassette deck. But that's about it. So you're right.

--Ethan

 

[mep]

I don't think I ever heard of tubes not being "fast". My old tube preamp had gobs of bandwidth (and many volts of output) long before the SS components and designs caught up... That said, most tube amps (from Dynaco and Eico through ARC, CJ, Futterman and Jadis with many others along the way, including a few home-brew jobs) I have heard have problems driving heavy loads, particularly in the low frequencies.

I agree with Frank's comment above about needed the treble to balance the bass, but isn't that the point of the very first post -- you need a full-range system? The debate then began...

Mark, you are just a monster, man! Now, all the rest of us who have a three-phase power feed into our house, raise your hands? Hmmm...? Thought so!

Don-Never mind tube amps incorrectly being used to drive low output impedances their output transformers were never designed for, I was specifically referring to the speed of tube preamps. Just as many people today have never owned any analog sources, many have also never owned any vacuum tube electronics and there are myths that persist in how they sound that get passed on to those who have never heard or owned them.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Don-Never mind tube amps incorrectly being used to drive low output impedances their output transformers were never designed for, I was specifically referring to the speed of tube preamps. Just as many people today have never owned any analog sources, many have also never owned any vacuum tube electronics and there are myths that persist in how they sound that get passed on to those who have never heard or owned them.

Speed is overrated. It's the silence between the notes that are most important. It's that silence between the notes that contributes to the perception of dynamic accents or those ever so important microdynamics that make the difference between the music being exciting or boring.

 

[Gregadd]

Speed is overrated. It's the silence between the notes that are most important. It's that silence between the notes that contributes to the perception of dynamic accents or those ever so important microdynamics that make the difference between the music being exciting or boring.

Myles how can speed be overeated? Speed is infinite. Sorry I've been drinking.

 

[fas42]

needed the treble to balance the bass, but isn't that the point of the very first post -- you need a full-range system?

My experience has been you can get away with no bass, but not with treble not working. The bit of nonsense I'm using at the moment has a self-powered subwoofer as part of the package (another weakness the system doesn't have to worry about!). If it is disconnected, forget any bass below 200Hz, but I find the ear/brain quite quickly adjusts and the sound is still happening. Let some treble distortion in, and the sound is then intolerable, I pull the plug and forget about it for the day ...

Frank

 

[MylesBAstor]

Myles how can speed be overeated? Speed is infinite. Sorry I've been drinking.

Partly because of what I said Think of the adage that speed kills too Do you remember the "way too long" timing thought piece by Thomas O. Miiller in TAS many moons ago.

Designers have built ultra, ultra, ultra fast ss circuits and they have sounded like crap. So there's more to the puzzle than speed. One in my opinion, tries to make up for the loss of silence between notes with "artificial" detail and speed. We went thru that awful period in high-end with that "ultra" resolution; sure you remember some of it where after an hour of listening, had a splitting headache!

 

[fas42]

Speed is overrated. It's the silence between the notes that are most important. It's that silence between the notes that contributes to the perception of dynamic accents or those ever so important microdynamics that make the difference between the music being exciting or boring.

Agree 100%

Frank

 

[DonH50]

To get silence between the notes, don't you need a fast falling edge? Speed covers both edges of the waveform...

That said, many factors play into "the silence between the notes", and in fact too much speed can contribute to issues there.

However, this whole discussion is clearly way out of my league, so I'll crawl back to the techie forum... - Don

 

[MylesBAstor]

To get silence between the notes, don't you need a fast falling edge? Speed covers both edges of the waveform...

That said, many factors play into "the silence between the notes", and in fact too much speed can contribute to issues there.

However, this whole discussion is clearly way out of my league, so I'll crawl back to the techie forum... - Don

I think that's a good question and there's lots of thoughts on the subject KOJ calls it settling time. I sometimes thinks it's noise. It might also be different in tube and ss circuits too.

But I don't think that speed is the answer necessarily the answer the trailing edge of the waveform and there's lot of things going on the circuit design that affects the silence.