The marvellous Martin Logan CLX ART – is definitely a work of “ART”
- Thread starter Big Dog RJ
- Start date
I was going to say the same thing but never did. TBH I wondered whether the Jadis JA200 was enough as it sounded a bit stressed when playing ZZ Top's La Grange when I asked Peter S. to turn it up. So did he. He backed the volume back down quickly without being prompted.
The Pass does 60 Watts at 4 Ohms. Unsure if it doubles again into 2. That seems (is) too low.
Ignorance is a bliss, anyway. After having listened for a few weeks to the ARCs REF750 in my system I decided to take a sabbatical on ARC ...
I will probably have to try again subwoofers to recover the degree of fullness and power I had in my system with them.
CLXs, BASS AND XA30.8
This should be seen as an extension of my previous posts, since they are all irrevocably linked.
To the subwoofer evangelists ( I will be the first to defend your right to exist and worship ), please conduct a not so simple experiment and enlighten me. Establish the RECORDED ( not playback ) frequency and dB level of the double bass ( because this is the instrument in contention ) on the following or any other albums. I mention these albums just to keep it as constant as possible:
1) Track 4, side B of Dave Holland Quintet's " The Razor's Edge" ( ECM ), 2) the latest remastered vinyl " Montreaux Alexander", TRACK 1, side 2, (MPS ), or the orgiastic, frenetic "The Sound of the Bass" by Francois Rabbath (Philips ). Listen at 95 dB , C weighted, Fast, Max ( not Peak ) on the SPLnFFT SPL meter, which is unanimously considered the most accurate amongst a number of testing organisations, including the American Acoustical Society. Note that on other meters such as the SPL PRO, this reading will be 105 dB and 114 dB PEAK.
Listen to them on a good and hopefully linear system and then with subwoofers. You have every right to prefer the bass with the subwoofers BUT, WAS THIS THE BASS ON THE RECORD? Furthermore, consider any systemic detrimental effects in terms of integration \ cohesiveness with other drivers \ panels, room modes, vagueness and homogenisation of the soundstage | imaging, etc. I insist on consistency and methodology because I consider the WBF a serious forum and we need to be sincere , specific and methodical in order to pursue validity and relevance.
With the CLXs and the LEBEN's fixed, high gain line stage, there are NO perceived ( and measured, with my recordings ) shortcomings with bass or any other facet of playback. Given the limitations of recording techniques and music production in general, the spatial resolution, transparency and cohesiveness of the CLXs portray the intricate inter-relationship between instruments ( macro\ micro dynamics ), correct size of instruments and spatial information in a natural, palpable and mesmerising manner. This phenomenon should be experienced as it is impossible to convey verbally.
Finally, if I am perceived to be pedantic, it is because I want to be unambiguous as my involvement in this hobby is to serve music and music only, for, MUSIC IS A MORAL LAW (Plato ).
And to all the presumptuous theorists: at the above-mentioned SPLs ( and higher but I am not a masochist ), the meter of the PASS LABS XA 30.8 NEVER deflects beyond 12 o'clock and hence does not enter into Class AB. Implicit in a number of posts was an element of disbelief and doubt, camouflaged with untested theory and innuendo. On the contrary, I have provided real experiences and aural, not imagined evidence. My "credentials": player, recordist and music lover. And yes....we are all audiophiles! Thank you and no offence.
Cheers, Kostas.
This should be seen as an extension of my previous posts, since they are all irrevocably linked.
To the subwoofer evangelists ( I will be the first to defend your right to exist and worship ), please conduct a not so simple experiment and enlighten me. Establish the RECORDED ( not playback ) frequency and dB level of the double bass ( because this is the instrument in contention ) on the following or any other albums. I mention these albums just to keep it as constant as possible:
1) Track 4, side B of Dave Holland Quintet's " The Razor's Edge" ( ECM ), 2) the latest remastered vinyl " Montreaux Alexander", TRACK 1, side 2, (MPS ), or the orgiastic, frenetic "The Sound of the Bass" by Francois Rabbath (Philips ). Listen at 95 dB , C weighted, Fast, Max ( not Peak ) on the SPLnFFT SPL meter, which is unanimously considered the most accurate amongst a number of testing organisations, including the American Acoustical Society. Note that on other meters such as the SPL PRO, this reading will be 105 dB and 114 dB PEAK.
Listen to them on a good and hopefully linear system and then with subwoofers. You have every right to prefer the bass with the subwoofers BUT, WAS THIS THE BASS ON THE RECORD? Furthermore, consider any systemic detrimental effects in terms of integration \ cohesiveness with other drivers \ panels, room modes, vagueness and homogenisation of the soundstage | imaging, etc. I insist on consistency and methodology because I consider the WBF a serious forum and we need to be sincere , specific and methodical in order to pursue validity and relevance.
With the CLXs and the LEBEN's fixed, high gain line stage, there are NO perceived ( and measured, with my recordings ) shortcomings with bass or any other facet of playback. Given the limitations of recording techniques and music production in general, the spatial resolution, transparency and cohesiveness of the CLXs portray the intricate inter-relationship between instruments ( macro\ micro dynamics ), correct size of instruments and spatial information in a natural, palpable and mesmerising manner. This phenomenon should be experienced as it is impossible to convey verbally.
Finally, if I am perceived to be pedantic, it is because I want to be unambiguous as my involvement in this hobby is to serve music and music only, for, MUSIC IS A MORAL LAW (Plato ).
And to all the presumptuous theorists: at the above-mentioned SPLs ( and higher but I am not a masochist ), the meter of the PASS LABS XA 30.8 NEVER deflects beyond 12 o'clock and hence does not enter into Class AB. Implicit in a number of posts was an element of disbelief and doubt, camouflaged with untested theory and innuendo. On the contrary, I have provided real experiences and aural, not imagined evidence. My "credentials": player, recordist and music lover. And yes....we are all audiophiles! Thank you and no offence.
Cheers, Kostas.
Fair point.
From 6 Moons review:
"On a forum, I found Pass Labs' own man Desmond quoted as saying that "the XA30.8 will output 90 watts @ 1% into 8? and almost 150 watts @ 1% into 4?." In short, the paper ratings here are arch conservative. Bragging is left to the other guys (and valve SETs which specify power with a 5% THD tolerance). "
So why publish a misleading spec then? One can only wonder what it dishes out at 5%.
I tired from thinking about the 40 KT120's that have to be replaced every 2000 hours and also the heat. I even considered air conditioning, but decided to be reasonable. I doubt that any one listening mainly to non amplified music can get tired with the sound of such amplifiers. They are really great, but typically my system is on 10 hours on average per day.
Most amplifier specifications, power included, are misleading. They have some use if you are comparing models from the same brand, or just want to have a coarse relative general idea of their capability. Just read our permanent divergence on amplifier recommendations for particular speakers in WBF.
That makes sense at 10 hrs a day. New tubes every 200 days is expensive.
I have 610T's but limited time to listen so I'm looking at 2-2 1/2 years tube life. As to heat, I knew they would be hot but it was more that I had expected. Fortunately I have ample AC to offset it. When I did the calculations it takes 1 Ton of cooling to offset the amps plus cooling the room in Florida summer heat.
They are amazing with the CLX's though.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Ah! I can clearly see where all the confusion and hype is going and in which direction...
I have been a culprit and a victim to myself when reading specs! Over the decades I always thought you need to buy the "biggest and most powerful amp that you can afford." Wrong! What I have also learnt along the decades is without ever "listening" with YOUR own ears and preferences, there is simply no way in judging specs- period!
That is why when I first headed to Kostas's place, I was actually wondering what on earth can a Class A 30 watt ss amp do with a pair of full range stats like a CLX! I also went through the specs myself and read through various posts/reviews/comments regarding the XA30.8 & the XA30.5 (which is another superb Pass Labs design). Finally after actively sitting down and listening to Kostas's system driven in its full glory, to my ears and to my liking and to my preference, once again it is simply the best I have ever heard!
No doubt, there may be others who prefer more bass, yes I can see why, and others who may require much larger output/wattage from their amplification to drive everything through the roof BUT to me it is really not required at all! For example, I just took delivery of my new CAV45 (control amplifier from CJ rated at just 45w/ch). All I can say is, this is the best purchase I have ever made with CJ to date! Simply effortless driving the Quads full range, musicality and resolution plus finer details in midrange and bass that I had not experienced with my Quads (other than with the ARTsa in triode mode), simply remarkable!
I don't have any reason whatsoever to change this amplifier, and if it can drive my Quads full range to realistic levels, it will certainly have no issues driving the Ethos. I quite honestly like the sound of my Quads right now, hence I'm in no hurry to make the switch over to ML. To me overall, I see it as a "peace of mind" move knowing there is a company with great service as well as great sound. Whether the Ethos is going to be supremely better than the Quads, I don't think so but it will give me an equal level of satisfaction to enjoy for years to come.
The CLX with tube front end and ss Class A back end will be my reference point, as I feel the full tonal balance to be perfect in all areas, hence why ruin this level of fine reproduction when it is so perfect?
Also, another important factor in Kostas's system is that it is not just the amp-preamp that makes this sonic signature. It is the entire chain of well matched components that creates this superb level of realism. Starting from the power board, all the way up to the stylus, contributes to a significant difference. And one that he has matched extremely well with all components but has also taken him quite a long journey to achieve (he tried 9 different amplifiers with the Quads and CLX to determine which one was the best match!)
I strongly recommend for those who may have doubts about certain types of amplifiers capable of driving certain types of speakers, you MUST actively listen to the system yourself before considering specs. I once used a CJ ET250s on the Quads and it shut down the moment I tried to increase output levels by just small margins. And a Class A with just 30 watts or SET deigns with just 8 watts of power worked fine. I have always been sceptical of Class A amplification and what it can do but when matched with the right load it actually can launch a very favourable presentation that is truly satisfying. It also makes me to start thinking why the hec do they make such massive amplifiers? are that much of watts & power really needed? From all that power, what percentage is really being used...
However, I can certainly see why and where this kind of BIG power is required especially for those very difficult and reactive loads, such as the notorious Apo's and massive Infinities of the good old days. This has completely changed now, I find speakers far more efficient compared to the older designs, they're much easier to drive and present a reasonable load for most moderate amplifiers. Therefore, I think pre-power and system matching is highly critical to get the formula right. I do know for a fact that when it is "right" just leave it and sit back and enjoy! The moment you start fiddling the whole roller coaster ride begins again...
Cheers to all and enjoy your music! RJ
I have been a culprit and a victim to myself when reading specs! Over the decades I always thought you need to buy the "biggest and most powerful amp that you can afford." Wrong! What I have also learnt along the decades is without ever "listening" with YOUR own ears and preferences, there is simply no way in judging specs- period!
That is why when I first headed to Kostas's place, I was actually wondering what on earth can a Class A 30 watt ss amp do with a pair of full range stats like a CLX! I also went through the specs myself and read through various posts/reviews/comments regarding the XA30.8 & the XA30.5 (which is another superb Pass Labs design). Finally after actively sitting down and listening to Kostas's system driven in its full glory, to my ears and to my liking and to my preference, once again it is simply the best I have ever heard!
No doubt, there may be others who prefer more bass, yes I can see why, and others who may require much larger output/wattage from their amplification to drive everything through the roof BUT to me it is really not required at all! For example, I just took delivery of my new CAV45 (control amplifier from CJ rated at just 45w/ch). All I can say is, this is the best purchase I have ever made with CJ to date! Simply effortless driving the Quads full range, musicality and resolution plus finer details in midrange and bass that I had not experienced with my Quads (other than with the ARTsa in triode mode), simply remarkable!
I don't have any reason whatsoever to change this amplifier, and if it can drive my Quads full range to realistic levels, it will certainly have no issues driving the Ethos. I quite honestly like the sound of my Quads right now, hence I'm in no hurry to make the switch over to ML. To me overall, I see it as a "peace of mind" move knowing there is a company with great service as well as great sound. Whether the Ethos is going to be supremely better than the Quads, I don't think so but it will give me an equal level of satisfaction to enjoy for years to come.
The CLX with tube front end and ss Class A back end will be my reference point, as I feel the full tonal balance to be perfect in all areas, hence why ruin this level of fine reproduction when it is so perfect?
Also, another important factor in Kostas's system is that it is not just the amp-preamp that makes this sonic signature. It is the entire chain of well matched components that creates this superb level of realism. Starting from the power board, all the way up to the stylus, contributes to a significant difference. And one that he has matched extremely well with all components but has also taken him quite a long journey to achieve (he tried 9 different amplifiers with the Quads and CLX to determine which one was the best match!)
I strongly recommend for those who may have doubts about certain types of amplifiers capable of driving certain types of speakers, you MUST actively listen to the system yourself before considering specs. I once used a CJ ET250s on the Quads and it shut down the moment I tried to increase output levels by just small margins. And a Class A with just 30 watts or SET deigns with just 8 watts of power worked fine. I have always been sceptical of Class A amplification and what it can do but when matched with the right load it actually can launch a very favourable presentation that is truly satisfying. It also makes me to start thinking why the hec do they make such massive amplifiers? are that much of watts & power really needed? From all that power, what percentage is really being used...
However, I can certainly see why and where this kind of BIG power is required especially for those very difficult and reactive loads, such as the notorious Apo's and massive Infinities of the good old days. This has completely changed now, I find speakers far more efficient compared to the older designs, they're much easier to drive and present a reasonable load for most moderate amplifiers. Therefore, I think pre-power and system matching is highly critical to get the formula right. I do know for a fact that when it is "right" just leave it and sit back and enjoy! The moment you start fiddling the whole roller coaster ride begins again...
Cheers to all and enjoy your music! RJ
Thanks for all of your observations Big Dog.
I purchased my 610T's when I had CLSIIZ's. There were recordings that I would need to turn the volume on my preamp to the mid 90's to get a listenable level and I don't listen loud.
Now with the CLX's I am listening with the preamp at mid 40's to mid 50's. If I didn't own them, I can't imagine I would be looking for this much wattage.
That said there are a few people in our listen club that have Pass amps and and a couple with the XA30.5 I will try to get a demo with my CLX's.
I purchased my 610T's when I had CLSIIZ's. There were recordings that I would need to turn the volume on my preamp to the mid 90's to get a listenable level and I don't listen loud.
Now with the CLX's I am listening with the preamp at mid 40's to mid 50's. If I didn't own them, I can't imagine I would be looking for this much wattage.
That said there are a few people in our listen club that have Pass amps and and a couple with the XA30.5 I will try to get a demo with my CLX's.
Hey Brad, the XA30.5 is no doubt a pretty good match however if possible try the xa30.8, it is quite a significant improvement. Kostas himself tried both amps and found these traits on the 30.8:
1. improved power supply
2. bigger transformer
3. delivers more stable current by quite a margin.
The 30.8 takes the performance level of Class A output to greater depths enabling it to handle the most complex impedence curves of stats and reactive loads. I personally would be most happy with either of these but I do think the 30.8 does have that extra edge in superb current drive. check one out if you can directly on your CLX'S and you'll know what it can do.
1. improved power supply
2. bigger transformer
3. delivers more stable current by quite a margin.
The 30.8 takes the performance level of Class A output to greater depths enabling it to handle the most complex impedence curves of stats and reactive loads. I personally would be most happy with either of these but I do think the 30.8 does have that extra edge in superb current drive. check one out if you can directly on your CLX'S and you'll know what it can do.
One very good thing of the 610T's is that besides high power they have low output impedance for a tube amplifier - around .3 ohm at 4 ohms - the same value as the giant SS DartZeels or the D'Agostinos. This feature makes them particularly adequate for the CLX's.
Specifications, like statistics, are similar to bikinis: WHAT THEY CONCEAL IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT THEY REVEAL! Two of the nine power amplifiers ( one 300, the other 200 W into 8 ohms ) were shut down because, apparently, they had run out of current, not watts, and could not meet the idiosyncratic impedance demands of the electrostatics.
Gain synergy, that is the proper gain structure between inter-related components ( in my case, cartridge output, phono stage, line stage and power amplifier output levels ), in conjunction with size of room and listener SPLs ( quite loud in my case) is paramount in driving difficult speakers. And of course, the most vital coupling of them all is the speaker \ amplifier interface.
Specifications, reviews and wishful \ perceived performance expectations are not enough. Thank you.
Cheers, Kostas.
Gain synergy, that is the proper gain structure between inter-related components ( in my case, cartridge output, phono stage, line stage and power amplifier output levels ), in conjunction with size of room and listener SPLs ( quite loud in my case) is paramount in driving difficult speakers. And of course, the most vital coupling of them all is the speaker \ amplifier interface.
Specifications, reviews and wishful \ perceived performance expectations are not enough. Thank you.
Cheers, Kostas.
There's nothing mystical going on here at all. The fact is the XA30.8 is 3 times more powerful than the spec advertises. And that is substantiated by a flipping Pass Labs employee!!! So what type of game are Pass playing here? This encourages the exact kind of waffle audiophiles are so good at.
"You should hear my 30 Watt amp driving my CLXs, it's class A you know. Isn't that amazing?".
No. It isn't. It is not a 30 Watt amp.
Sorry to be so blunt but sometimes the BS quotient just gets too hard to take.
"You should hear my 30 Watt amp driving my CLXs, it's class A you know. Isn't that amazing?".
No. It isn't. It is not a 30 Watt amp.
Sorry to be so blunt but sometimes the BS quotient just gets too hard to take.
