This will make your head spin... Synergistic Research Atmosphere

[thedudeabides]

I am intrigued what do dealers tell you when they sell you this stuff, do they hypnotise you?
Keith.

With all due respect, why do folks like you have to be so dismissive and insulting. I just don't get it.

Why can't you adopt the guidelines that appears, for example, in the Wilson Owners sub forum, that being that it is not a place for folks to whine or complain about a Wilson product. In other words, constructive non-combative dialogue.

Can't you be at least respectful of other opinions and if you disagree, simply say it in a non disparaging, non judgmental manner?

This is the kind of crap that continues to appear on this forum and it gets people upset and causes a thread to go down the tubes.

In the end, it's very simple. If someone buys a product and likes the results, so be it. It's their flippin money, not yours, and you have not been harmed in any manner.

 

[esldude]

With all due respect, why do folks like you have to be so dismissive and insulting. I just don't get it.

Why can't you adopt the guidelines that appears, for example, in the Wilson Owners sub forum, that being that it is not a place for folks to whine or complain about a Wilson product. In other words, constructive non-combative dialogue.

Can't you be at least respectful of other opinions and if you disagree, simply say it in a non disparaging, non judgmental manner?

This is the kind of crap that continues to appear on this forum and it gets people upset and causes a thread to go down the tubes.

In the end, it's very simple. If someone buys a product and likes the results, so be it. It's their flippin money, not yours, and you have not been harmed in any manner.

Yeah, like what's so valuable about truth anyway, right?

 

[microstrip]

So its putting an RF field into the room, and this RF affects our body in a way that affects our hearing. oh no, not messing with the I believe my ears over measurements crowd...........hummm.

Considering the very little technical information available we should be careful when debating this device. When people refer to RF , ULF (Ultra Low Frequency) is the range of electromagnetic waves between 300 hertz and 3 kilohertz. The Schumann resonance is an ELF. Does any one know the exact range of frequencies used in the SR Atmosphere?

 

[esldude]

Considering the very little technical information available we should be careful when debating this device. When people refer to RF , ULF (Ultra Low Frequency) is the range of electromagnetic waves between 300 hertz and 3 kilohertz. The Schumann resonance is an ELF. Does any one know the exact range of frequencies used in the SR Atmosphere?

http://www.stereophile.com/content/rmaf-2014-john-atkinson-wraps-his-wreport

This is where the idea originated that it uses Schumann resonance frequencies I think.

 

[microstrip]

With all due respect, why do folks like you have to be so dismissive and insulting. I just don't get it.

Why can't you adopt the guidelines that appears, for example, in the Wilson Owners sub forum, that being that it is not a place for folks to whine or complain about a Wilson product. In other words, constructive non-combative dialogue.

Can't you be at least respectful of other opinions and if you disagree, simply say it in a non disparaging, non judgmental manner?

This is the kind of crap that continues to appear on this forum and it gets people upset and causes a thread to go down the tubes.

In the end, it's very simple. If someone buys a product and likes the results, so be it. It's their flippin money, not yours, and you have not been harmed in any manner.

+1!

I was going to post something similar after post #30, as I still remember the nice and constructive debate he had about Schumann Resonances three months ago. http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14632-Acoustic-Revive-Schuman-Wave-Generator/page3

 

[spiritofmusic]

+1 on the disrespect from Keith. There's no doubt this stuff can be manna from Heaven for the uber skeptics. I can let Keith in to what's inside grounding boxes - plates/wiring of Copper and Silver interspersed w/tightly packed minerals etc. Whether this is as unspectacular as the internal view of the SR Atmosphere, I don't know. Depends on your level of skepticism. In my limited time investigating the range of options to max out my system, I have listened to and TURNED DOWN MANY pricey items that either had no discernible effect/worsened the sound/manipulated the sound/was poor VFM despite any moderate positives - incl SteinMusic Harmonisers, LessLoss Blackbodies, Pete Belt stuff, BSG QOL unit, many uber pricey cables, a couple of well-respected complicated racks. Conversely I have held onto a few that were truly amazing in their positive effects - Elrog 845 tubes, Westwick 8kVA balanced transformer, Entreq grounding, Sablon cables/pc's, Spatial Computer Black Hole bass attenuator. Despite Keith considering us who invest in tweaks to be all saps, easily manipulated in giving away our hard-earned to stuff that can have no physical effect peddled by snake oil salesmen, I am actually really pretty proud of myself that I turn down more than half the stuff I try out. I don't doubt placebo plays a big part in listener reaction to tweaks, but then again it does in medicine, food, and a whole range of human experiences.
So Keith, if you feel you are really above this whole "debacle" you should ask y'self why you sell anything that doesn't measure perfectly. I mean, the natural progression of your argument is that audio should only be chosen on objective stats. Be brave, stock up on decades old Yamaha receivers, Halcro amps, 80s Phillips cdps. And ditch gear that probably measures terribly like your Liszts.
And before you reply, for a change answer some of my retorts directly instead of avoiding my comments while reiterating your tbh tired party line.

 

[microstrip]

http://www.stereophile.com/content/rmaf-2014-john-atkinson-wraps-his-wreport

This is where the idea originated that it uses Schumann resonance frequencies I think.

Thanks. So it seems the references to "RF pollution" are just marketing using the ambiguous broadness of the RFs, as the frequency ranges are completely different.

 

[taters]

The product is complete BS, and will no doubt be purchased by the more 'open minded',who also purchased, cable lifters, mains cables, grounding boxes, green felt pens and aluminium foil listening hats.
Keith.

Keith.

I have never heard this product and don't know if it works or not. What I do know is that I checked out a demo they had at the Newport show a couple of years ago. It was a 400k system featuring Magico and Vac. He had all his gizmos connected to this system. He played it with the gizmos in and out of the system. Did it sound different, yes, did it sound better, no. This man is the guru of gadgets and he knows audiophiles are a very Insecure bunch so he knows his market. It reminds me off my sister spending thousands of dollars on make up at Neiman Marcus. That Industry also plays Into the Insecurities of woman.

 

[BruceD]

With all due respect, why do folks like you have to be so dismissive and insulting. I just don't get it.

Why can't you adopt the guidelines that appears, for example, in the Wilson Owners sub forum, that being that it is not a place for folks to whine or complain about a Wilson product. In other words, constructive non-combative dialogue.

Can't you be at least respectful of other opinions and if you disagree, simply say it in a non disparaging, non judgmental manner?

This is the kind of crap that continues to appear on this forum and it gets people upset and causes a thread to go down the tubes.

In the end, it's very simple. If someone buys a product and likes the results, so be it. It's their flippin money, not yours, and you have not been harmed in any manner.

Agree like I stated in another post-- it's a damn pity these know it all dealers poke there snouts in--the debate circles the drain--meh!

BruceD

 

[thedudeabides]

Yeah, like what's so valuable about truth anyway, right?

Assuming this is another veiled insult which it appears to be, what a great way to respond to a post requesting / supporting respectful, constructive dialogue.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Testy bunch today!

 

[spiritofmusic]

+1 Dude. The whole area of human psychology/placebo/expectation bias is rife, not just in audio, but the whole spectrum of human experience. Music. Food. Medicine. Fashion. Etc etc. I'm sure many audio tweaks don't stack up on measurements, and might well fail double blind trials. Keith sells the Cessaro Liszt, IMHO the most beautifully imposing spkrs you may ever set your eyes on. You can't but expect it to sound phenomenal, and it does. But you expect it too. And it does. You get my meaning. My GF has fantastic aural acuity often hearing things in my music that I'm blissfully aware of. But she has no interest in hifi, and I guarantee she would walk away from the Liszts in a heartbeat and not really rate the sound. Well, she has no expectation. And where was my expectation bias when i trialled Entreq. I sure was a reluctant listener, would have bet my mortgage payments that a passive wooden box w/leads not in the signal path would have created no impression on me.
Placebo/expectation bias certainly can turn us on/off a product, but I would hope all of us that have made audio a lifelong passion and not just a hobby, would be mature enough to hear past this and at least have a reasonable chance of making a primitive assessment of whether a tweak has mileage or is no go for us individually. I do feel this is what I've applied in my Entreq grounding experience. I SOOOO would have loved to have spent the £3k I've spent so far on anything luxurious instead (that lovely Caribbean holiday would have been GREAT!, I could have spent time on the beach sipping Pina Coladas , dissing the saps out there not on holiday having been taken in by v. pricey hot air ).

 

[GaryProtein]

So many tweaks are just plain crap. Snake oil. Flat out LIES.

I don't mind people speaking their minds about a product even if it is driven into the dirt. Most should be.

I do think that ad hominem attacks against people who like these products is uncalled for but similar attacks against manufacturers who, in the eyes of the observer produce ridiculous products is fair game. Manufacturer's claims made without real evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Manufacturers should be able to defend their products.

 

[thedudeabides]

It's very obvious what side you fall on.

Unfortunate that you don't "get" (read understand) the subjective side of this hobby.

If you did, you would never have posted the above.

You consider it "fair game" and apparently worthy of your disdain and subsequent "dismissal".

Others interpret your remarks as absolutist and elitist.

Have a good evening.

 

[esldude]

It's very obvious what side you fall on.

Unfortunate that you don't "get" (read understand) the subjective side of this hobby.

If you did, you would never have posted the above.

You consider it "fair game" and apparently worthy of your disdain and subsequent "dismissal".

Others interpret your remarks as absolutist and elitist.

Have a good evening.

Well, I may fall on the same side. I once was an arch subjectivist. So I do understand.

I don't disdain subjectivists, but the truth will lead you clear of a forest of confusion, and chaos if you let it. There need be no complete absolutism, but there does need to be rational truth. If truth be elitist, then so be it. Do subjectivists fear the truth so much? I thought not. I think not. So don't fear letting go of gut level subjectivist reactions, lean into the truth and it will make things better. Some considerable subjectivist perceptions are exactly right. Don't fear parsing out those that are deceptive, and misleading.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't really get this line of argument. If I go into a demo sure that things are a possible sham, and I come out the other end w/my jaw on the floor, I still turn the item down because it "can't" work? But it did. There was no expectation bias at work, more "sure it'll fail" bias. Or can things only work if they measure/can be fully explained? I know Keith tried Sablon power cords in his system and heard NOTHING. In my case I heard a WHOLE lot more. Where do we go from here?
Tweaks set up all sorts of cynical thoughts in me, esp SR stuff - just how can this stuff really work? I'm confident that I'm reasonably discerning to balance my disdain w/any positives that might arise. So I'd go into a SR demo w/my arms tightly folded, but open minded enough to pick up anything, good or bad. As I did w/Entreq.
You objectivist guys really are in the wrong hobby. Vinyl can't measure as well as digital, but it stands up pretty well. No high end equipment measures better than bog standard 70s Yamaha receivers and 80s phillips cdp's, but I don't see the objective guys ditching their "favourite" expensive amps and digital. Halcro, Devialet and Magico measure beautifully, but make me run for the hills. My Audion SETs I'm sure measure terribly, as does probably Lloyd's Zanden cdp, but these items make some of the most beautiful sounds.
Now Im sure if I was subjected to a roomful of SR tweaks and they left me cold, I'd be scathing. But my experience of half the stuff I try doing nothing and the other half being truly positive means that such stuff can't be dismissed in their entirety.
So arch objectivists - do you dismiss stuff in other fields that when you analyse it prob has no true technical advantage, but enhances your enjoyment factor e.g. organic/handmade food, quality clothing not made in the Third World, beautiful women, a real book rather than an e-book. Bespoke cars. Etc etc. None of these things has any real measurable or decisive quality improvement over more mass market stuff, but we often derive more pleasure.
I am biased - my job as an osteopath measures terribly as so many doctors tell me it's all a sham, and placebo is v. powerful in medicine, but try and tell that to my many patients who have derived benefit where there was much less w.the more measurable painkiller approach.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Those "tweaks"seem to always have the following terms or/and concepts:

Soundstage: Always expanded to beyond infinity or at least the Galaxy
Images: Always more precise or something of that nature, solid, dimensional
Air: More of it , Things breathe better
Organic: This one is relatively new on the audiophile jargon but it is often used. Not sure what it means, perhaps, less digital fertilizer
Fleshed-out: Could be classified with "images" but to take a meaning of its own.
Articulation: More of it ...
Highs: Smoother , more extended
Bass: Deeper, more defined
Midrange: More realistic, warmer

There are more but those are the most common.

Of course there are combination of the above as in :"Bass was more fleshed-out, as well as more articulated and it went deeper" , "Highs were more extended but smoother", etc...

What is even more interesting is that no facts will sway the believers. The manufacturers of such products know that, they are actually forced to. Suffice to read the arguments here and other places to form the idea that any products however outlandish the claims and no matter what amount of BS is uncovered later, will always elicit in some people some forms of the above recollection of perception. And they will continue to buy and the soundstage will continue to expand and the sound more organic and ...

 

[FrantzM]

Those thinking of this Atmosphere for a purchase might be interested in this thread on another SR product. The HOT device for headphone use.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/741043/some-hot-science-from-synergistic-research

Particularly post #24 where the device is dissembled with photos. And post #353 where the mystery substance is analyzed.

To prevent the suspense or needing to read all of the posts, in summary it appears the HOT device has three silver wires that go straight thru. There is a bit of foil and some granular material in a sticky binder compound. The granular material is basically silicon dioxide (as is sand) in a conductive paste according to some analysis. There are plans to do a good electrical measurement of the device as well though everything points to the likelihood the device actually does nothing to the signal.

Not sure about the policy for linking to another site but this needs to be seen/read. Post #24 of that thread.
Mods please remove link if it violates anything in your terms of use or policies:

POST #24

 

[Barry2013]

Mains cables can't possibly make a difference that is just expectation bias, I would have thought most solid state amps
are measurably 'transparent' , it is perfectly acceptable that you prefer valves, I think it important that you understand why you prefer valves, or why someone may prefer a NOS dac, their characteristics are reflected by their measurements.
An unsighted comparison, level matched,if you are comparing two active components can be extremely revealing.
Keith.

Is it not equally credible that those who claim "mains cable can't possibly make a difference" are also victims of "expectation bias"?

 

[FrantzM]

Is it not equally credible that those who claim "mains cable can't possibly make a difference" are also victims of "expectation bias"?

Indeed that could be the case.. There is a way to settle (wishful thinking) this: Remove knowledge and we'll "see".