This will make your head spin... Synergistic Research Atmosphere

[Mike Lavigne]

There is not one study where in an unsighted comparison a mains cable was consistently selected, afaik there are no measurable differences between mains leads.
Keith.

but really, who gives a rip about that? or who cares whether you can measure differences? at best tests don't test for the right things or uncover what audible differences there are due to the nature of 'short duration' listening tests, and they still have no idea what differences to measure to correlate to audible with music performance.

the whole idea is so jumbled as to be a waste of time to even think about.

I hope you enjoy your wonderful system based on objectivist unsighted testing. sounds like fun.

 

[spiritofmusic]

But Frantz, these terms also apply to the attributes we describe when describing a component. They're not exclusive to tweaks. I do hope you haven't used these terms y'self, online or verbally in describing impvts to your system. If you have you really ought not to, and just hand over your $s. Just judging you by your own critique.
Keith, your own expectation bias is fully in operation, I wish you would be a little more consistent. Who wouldn't think the Liszts sound great, purely from looking at them, let alone listening. They made my heart swoon even before I heard them. As I'm sure they did you. Please don't try to tell me you checked out their technical characteristics first to justify your choice in dealing them. You saw, fell in love, and expectation was now at 110%. So much so that you endlessly justified the bass boom in your room from them when I was there. So you are not really in a position to say your way is the truth, all else is sham. Like all objectivists, there is no room for doubt. When Ked demoed his Shun Mooks to me, and I got NOTHING good from them, it would be the last thing on my mind to dismiss his personal experience.
To really broaden things out, there really is no objective evidence for the existence of God. I'm a non believer myself. But the deep psychology involved in the evolution of man means that religion IMHO is a most powerful influence on our perception of reality for the vast proportion of the world's population, and just can't be dismissed, esp. it's many powerfully positive effects. Objectivist atheists like Dawkins will never win their arguments, esp. as they in effect label believers as overly influenced by sham belief, and all they need to do is look at the (non) evidence.
At least the high end tweak industry doesn't play on the frailties of humans like the psychics/Evangelical Christians/New Age lifestyle gurus. We're lucky.

 

[dmnc02]

What is even more interesting is that no facts will sway the believers. The manufacturers of such products know that, they are actually forced to. Suffice to read the arguments here and other places to form the idea that any products however outlandish the claims and no matter what amount of BS is uncovered later, will always elicit in some people some forms of the above recollection of perception.

Not sure about the policy for linking to another site but this needs to be seen/read. Post #24 of that thread.
Mods please remove link if it violates anything in your terms of use or policies:

POST #24

Well, the Head-Fi thread esldude (and now you) refer to actually well illustrates IMHO the problem with the attitude of many so-called objectivists.

That thread is about a device called HOT that SR claims improves the headphone listening experience by "getting the sound out of your head". The tear down in post #24 showed that the device consisted of nothing more than three silver wires with pieces of foil and a powdery substance later identified as silicon dioxide, leading to dismissive comments by some people that the evidence was in that the product could not possibly work as claimed. However, in post #396, somebody with a better technical background (in this case, an electrical engineer), pointed out that the device appears to be from an electrical standpoint a simple 3-pole capacitor and that capacitors can induce a phase or delay shift in the left and right channel that could indeed lead to a widening of the perceived soundstage.

The problem I think this illustrates is the wrong absolute belief by some objectivists that they have a complete theoretical model of a complex physical phenomenon that they can use to completely dismiss empirical evidence by those who try a product and can hear an effect. While discussion of the theoretical underpinning of an audio product is always valuable and interesting, it is this presumptuous attitude that I personally find completely off-putting.

To be clear, I have not heard the HOT and thus have absolutely no opinion of it one way or another.

 

[bonzo75]

+1 - We can see that the confirmation bias is at post 24, with the objectivists

Well, the Head-Fi thread esldude (and now you) refer to actually well illustrates IMHO the problem with the attitude of many so-called objectivists.

That thread is about a device called HOT that SR claims improves the headphone listening experience by "getting the sound out of your head". The tear down in post #24 showed that the device consisted of nothing more than three silver wires with pieces of foil and a powdery substance later identified as silicon dioxide, leading to dismissive comments by some people that the evidence was in that the product could not possibly work as claimed. However, in post #396, somebody with a better technical background (in this case, an electrical engineer), pointed out that the device appears to be from an electrical standpoint a simple 3-pole capacitor and that capacitors can induce a phase or delay shift in the left and right channel that could indeed lead to a widening of the perceived soundstage.

The problem I think this illustrates is the wrong absolute belief by some objectivists that they have a complete theoretical model of a complex physical phenomenon that they can use to completely dismiss empirical evidence by those who try a product and can hear an effect. While discussion of the theoretical underpinning of an audio product is always valuable and interesting, it is this presumptuous attitude that I personally find completely off-putting.

To be clear, I have not heard the HOT and thus have absolutely no opinion of it one way or another.

 

[edorr]

I found the most effective tweak in audio to be magic mushrooms. I guess that makes me the ultimate subjectivist.

 

[GaryProtein]

. . . .At least the high end tweak industry doesn't play on the frailties of humans like the psychics/Evangelical Christians/New Age lifestyle gurus. We're lucky.

Are you kidding? That's exactly what they do.

Hi

Those "tweaks"seem to always have the following terms or/and concepts:

Soundstage: Always expanded to beyond infinity or at least the Galaxy
Images: Always more precise or something of that nature, solid, dimensional
Air: More of it , Things breathe better
Organic: This one is relatively new on the audiophile jargon but it is often used. Not sure what it means, perhaps, less digital fertilizer
Fleshed-out: Could be classified with "images" but to take a meaning of its own.
Articulation: More of it ...
Highs: Smoother , more extended
Bass: Deeper, more defined
Midrange: More realistic, warmer

There are more but those are the most common.

Of course there are combination of the above as in :"Bass was more fleshed-out, as well as more articulated and it went deeper" , "Highs were more extended but smoother", etc...

What is even more interesting is that no facts will sway the believers. The manufacturers of such products know that, they are actually forced to. Suffice to read the arguments here and other places to form the idea that any products however outlandish the claims and no matter what amount of BS is uncovered later, will always elicit in some people some forms of the above recollection of perception. And they will continue to buy and the soundstage will continue to expand and the sound more organic and ...

That's an excellent list.

If you use all available tweaks, there is no doubt that the playback of a recording will sound better than the original live performance.

 

[thedudeabides]

Well, I may fall on the same side. I once was an arch subjectivist. So I do understand.

So don't fear letting go of gut level subjectivist reactions, lean into the truth and it will make things better. Some considerable subjectivist perceptions are exactly right. Don't fear parsing out those that are deceptive, and misleading.

Well said and your statement is applicable to both the O and S crowd. Simply substitute "subjectivist" with "objectivist" and you have the counter position.

Best.

 

[dmnc02]

Well said and your statement is applicable to both the O and S crowd. Simply substitute "subjectivist" with "objectivist" and you have the counter position.

+1

 

[bonzo75]

+1

Well said and your statement is applicable to both the O and S crowd. Simply substitute "subjectivist" with "objectivist" and you have the counter position.

Best.

 

[thedudeabides]

Why are you apparently unable to contribute to this discussion in a constructive, respectful manner?

And do you believe that folks who audition and ultimately purchase these products, because they like what they hear, have been influenced by "psychics"?

 

[microstrip]

Hi

Those "tweaks"(...)

Frantz,

It woulld be nice to put an exact name in the tweaks you are referring. Ambiguous badmouthing does not add anything new to the discussion, and probably some people will think you are addressing mainly power conditioning....

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

It woulld be nice to put an exact name in the tweaks you are referring. Ambiguous badmouthing does not add anything new to the discussion, and probably some people will think you are addressing mainly power conditioning....

Good Day microstrip

Context .. micro ..Context...

 

[microstrip]

Good Day microstrip

Context .. micro ..Context...

I see now. Just badmouthing to please the crowd...

 

[FrantzM]

I see now. Just badmouthing to please the crowd...

Don't stoop to ad hominem ... You are above that

 

[DaveC]

I think everything has the potential to change the way a system sounds, and it's up to the individual to decide where to draw the line.

Personally, I did hear a difference at the RMAF 2014 demo, but these kinds of tweaks are not interesting to me because they don't change how much I enjoy the music, they just make the sound slightly different. I am done with tweaks that make small, subtle differences that are not usually clear improvements.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I'm giving up on this thread.........

 

[FrantzM]

I'm giving up on this thread.........

Why? Because of the dissenting POVs?

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Why? Because of the dissenting POVs?

I can deal with that. I just don't like the tone and some talk that's being thrown around.

 

[Atmasphere]

Mains cables can't possibly make a difference that is just expectation bias,[snip]
Keith.

FWIW I have measured differences in power cables using just a simple 3 1/2 digit DVM. Not a very sophisticated measurement, but what I measured explained the loss of about 40% of the output power of the amplifier. If you are saying that is not a difference you are quite mistaken. Its certainly not expectation bias.

This does not mean that a good power cable has to be expensive, although one of the problem areas are the connectors themselves and if you want good ones the cable will have to cost at least $150 in order for someone to make it and actually market it and not loose their shirt in the process. Also, I am not saying that power cords will be audible in all situations. I can go into greater technical detail about what they are about if anyone is interested...

So let's keep power cords out of this?

**************************

Sure wish they had a different name for the product. I have to admit some skepticism BTW.

 

[edorr]

FWIW I have measured differences in power cables using just a simple 3 1/2 digit DVM. Not a very sophisticated measurement, but what I measured explained the loss of about 40% of the output power of the amplifier.

So did the amp actually output 40% less power with the "high loss" AC cord? Seems like a bit of a stretch.