i attached a third octave graph with a 75 hz crossover no filters! This shows a flat response with a bump at 80 Hz. DSP can handle this no problem but no modes of relevance. This is with the MS-6P at wall floor boundary and microphone on the other side of the room about 3ft from the wall. I don’t focus on small variations within each band. Spectral response is based on our hearing and is a standard especially in room measurements.
The room is reacting to the driver not the driver reacting to the room.
i attached a third octave graph with a 75 hz crossover no filters! This shows a flat response with a bump at 80 Hz. DSP can handle this no problem but no modes of relevance. This is with the MS-6P at wall floor boundary and microphone on the other side of the room about 3ft from the wall. I don’t focus on small variations within each band. Spectral response is based on our hearing and is a standard especially in room measurements.
Then we're back to you actually saying that the room modes are reduced through this technology, which I find very difficult believe without quite extensive proof. The graph you posted is nowhere near proof. We need a high definition (no smoothing) graph with a normal sub vs your sub in the same position in the room, measured from the listening position, showing that your subwoofer excites the room differently (less) than a normal subwoofer.
The room is reacting to the driver not the driver reacting to the room.
i attached a third octave graph with a 75 hz crossover no filters! This shows a flat response with a bump at 80 Hz. DSP can handle this no problem but no modes of relevance. This is with the MS-6P at wall floor boundary and microphone on the other side of the room about 3ft from the wall. I don’t focus on small variations within each band. Spectral response is based on our hearing and is a standard especially in room measurements.
Hearing does not follow 1/3-octave smoothing in the bass region; I do not recall that being a measurement standard. Small variations in the bass region are discernable. Why is the microphone not at the listening position? Or is that your listening position?
DSP, or analog EQ, can readily handle peaks since they are usually 6 dB or less; it is nulls that are the issue since they can be quite deep. Nulls from room modes also tend to be narrow so 1/3-octave smoothing will effectively mask those.
Thanks @sigbergaudio for the right patent, no idea how the numbers were glitched in my search. All I have read to date indicates it is affecting the subwoofer itself, not somehow eliminating or circumventing room modes.
...that was the thrust of my comment above. Great if the tech is helping the driver/enclosure from distorting, but you're still pushing out waveforms that do whatever they do to your room/ears.
Then we're back to you actually saying that the room modes are reduced through this technology, which I find very difficult believe without quite extensive proof. The graph you posted is nowhere near proof. We need a high definition (no smoothing) graph with a normal sub vs your sub in the same position in the room, measured from the listening position, showing that your subwoofer excites the room differently (less) than a normal subwoofer.
You can put any conventional subwoofer in that position and measure it using 3rd octave measurements. With no eq the measurements would be all over the place! I could give you measurements from different parts of the room with little variation! Do you think that I am not being truthful?
They do a lot of subwoofer reviews on Audioholics site. A statement that the reviewer makes after each review is that his final room eq adjustments are for his listening position only! The rest of the room will not experience the same eq! He ends the paragraph saying that this is the case for all subwoofers not just the one that he is reviewing. That is not true with our products only resonance based subs that don’t terminate the energy in the enclosure.
You can put any conventional subwoofer in that position and measure it using 3rd octave measurements. With no eq the measurements would be all over the place! I could give you measurements from different parts of the room with little variation! Do you think that I am not being truthful?
They do a lot of subwoofer reviews on Audioholics site. A statement that the reviewer makes after each review is that his final room eq adjustments are for his listening position only! The rest of the room will not experience the same eq! He ends the paragraph saying that this is the case for all subwoofers not just the one that he is reviewing. That is not true with our products only resonance based subs that don’t terminate the energy in the enclosure.
Now what does this have to do with the rooms acoustics? Well actual usage in various rooms shows that the room boundaries mimic the grounded boundaries of the enclosure! Actual measurements show a mild increase in level at the walls with bass response even in the room. Corners increase the bass level but no real modes or dips and peaks as would be the normal case.
You can put any conventional subwoofer in that position and measure it using 3rd octave measurements. With no eq the measurements would be all over the place! I could give you measurements from different parts of the room with little variation! Do you think that I am not being truthful?
They do a lot of subwoofer reviews on Audioholics site. A statement that the reviewer makes after each review is that his final room eq adjustments are for his listening position only! The rest of the room will not experience the same eq! He ends the paragraph saying that this is the case for all subwoofers not just the one that he is reviewing. That is not true with our products only resonance based subs that don’t terminate the energy in the enclosure.
I want to be very sure we are capturing your claims correctly. This is the plot for an example room showing the peaks and valleys (nulls) in the response due to room modes at various locations in the room:
Your claim is that your subwoofer eliminates these peaks and valleys, not just at the listening position, but everywhere in the room? That should be easy to prove by measuring the frequency response at a few points using a conventional subwoofer and then with your subwoofer in the same place.
You can put any conventional subwoofer in that position and measure it using 3rd octave measurements. With no eq the measurements would be all over the place! I could give you measurements from different parts of the room with little variation! Do you think that I am not being truthful?
They do a lot of subwoofer reviews on Audioholics site. A statement that the reviewer makes after each review is that his final room eq adjustments are for his listening position only! The rest of the room will not experience the same eq! He ends the paragraph saying that this is the case for all subwoofers not just the one that he is reviewing. That is not true with our products only resonance based subs that don’t terminate the energy in the enclosure.
On the bright side, if your claim is indeed truthful, it is very easy to prove, unlike those who claim night and day differences in cables, internet routers etc.
I find this to be 15 pages of BS claims that seemingly contradict known science. The on and on posting and circular statements suggest a troll. Perhaps a clever troll but still a troll.
i attached a third octave graph with a 75 hz crossover no filters! This shows a flat response with a bump at 80 Hz. DSP can handle this no problem but no modes of relevance. This is with the MS-6P at wall floor boundary and microphone on the other side of the room about 3ft from the wall. I don’t focus on small variations within each band. Spectral response is based on our hearing and is a standard especially in room measurements.
This is a step in the right direction but not enough. The measurement should be at the MLP (at ear height), not heavily smoothed, without any "spectral" correction and accompanied by the same data from a standard sub in place of yours. The only way to claim there is a difference is to have (at least) two items to compare.
I want to be very sure we are capturing your claims correctly. This is the plot for an example room showing the peaks and valleys (nulls) in the response due to room modes at various locations in the room: View attachment 135096
Your claim is that your subwoofer eliminates these peaks and valleys, not just at the listening position, but everywhere in the room? That should be easy to prove by measuring the frequency response at a few points using a conventional subwoofer and then with your subwoofer in the same place.
Essentially yes! The swarm was created with conventional subwoofers to focus on your issue. A single MS-6 passive or active will not demonstrate those nulls. The bass level will vary as more pressure increases are in corners and near the walls. The effect is that of a stable boundary layer as is in the enclosure. The pressure is greater at the boundary for most of the low frequencies but pressures are even away from the wall. When the subwoofer is properly integrated the bass will appear to be part of the mains even if you get closer to the MS-6. It’s very similar to the feedback given for the Magellan reviews if you need to hear it from someone else! This is a fine tuned version of those subwoofers!
I find this to be 15 pages of BS claims that seemingly contradict known science. The on and on posting and circular statements suggest a troll. Perhaps a clever troll but still a troll.
Read the early reviews on our Magellan lines. We are not going backwards here! This industry is pushing technology from the 1950’s for speakers. No real advances many idiosyncrasies yet those in the position of influence hold change back! You will be witnessing the influence that this useless patent has on the entire industry soon.
Essentially yes! The swarm was created with conventional subwoofers to focus on your issue. A single MS-6 passive or active will not demonstrate those nulls. The bass level will vary as more pressure increases are in corners and near the walls. The effect is that of a stable boundary layer as is in the enclosure. The pressure is greater at the boundary for most of the low frequencies but pressures are even away from the wall. When the subwoofer is properly integrated the bass will appear to be part of the mains even if you get closer to the MS-6. It’s very similar to the feedback given for the Magellan reviews if you need to hear it from someone else! This is a fine tuned version of those subwoofers!
Sounds incredible. So the passive sub has no processing anywhere, just properly integrate, and room modes are gone? I would love to see independent test results of that (as I said before I am not interested in uncontrolled listening reviews). Very easy to measure and prove. A consumer using REW could do it pretty easily.
What is "properly integrated"? Do you adjust subwoofer position, and are the main speakers crossed over, at what frequency?
Edit: Nobody has said the patent is "useless" AFAIK, just that it does not appear to describe how to alleviate room modes' influence on the sound.
Sounds incredible. So the passive sub has no processing anywhere, just properly integrate, and room modes are gone? I would love to see independent test results of that (as I said before I am not interested in uncontrolled listening reviews). Very easy to measure and prove. A consumer using REW could do it pretty easily.
What is "properly integrated"? Do you adjust subwoofer position, and are the main speakers crossed over, at what frequency?
Edit: Nobody has said the patent is "useless" AFAIK, just that it does not appear to describe how to alleviate room modes' influence on the sound.
Don’t add words to what I am saying! Having available a passive sub allows the audiophile to choose their own means of adjusting the crossover or filters! We offer both analog or digital filters for that process! The fact that we are selling a passive sub means no electronic tricks up our sleeves. We have customers that chose Marchand crossovers some with high pass for their mains. There are many available options available that are effective when you solve the acoustic issues acoustically! We have some trying Dirac with success. The other issue that we haven’t discussed is the existence of two bass resonant frequencies and that effect. Your main speakers typically have a well tamed resonant frequency for its woofer that extends the bass. The mass isn’t significantly high so it can be responsive to its higher ranges. Now you want to add a subwoofer that by definition has a much lower resonant frequency. Now you have to damp that resonance but it still exists.
Analogy! Situation is akin to pulling a trailer with your car! Even a well damped suspension on the trailer is going to interfere with your vehicles handling. It’s not easy to ignore the new situation unless you can sync the suspensions.
You have to eliminate the stored energy (grounded at boundary) in the subwoofer. Non resonate bass extension just couples with your mains for an invisible integration! Read the early reviews and that’s what the third party says. It’s just it’s more detail and range with continued research over the years. We can also scale it with ease.
Don’t add words to what I am saying! Having available a passive sub allows the audiophile to choose their own means of adjusting the crossover or filters! We offer both analog or digital filters for that process! The fact that we are selling a passive sub means no electronic tricks up our sleeves. We have customers that chose Marchand crossovers some with high pass for their mains. There are many available options available that are effective when you solve the acoustic issues acoustically! We have some trying Dirac with success. The other issue that we haven’t discussed is the existence of two bass resonant frequencies and that effect. Your main speakers typically have a well tamed resonant frequency for its woofer that extends the bass. The mass isn’t significantly high so it can be responsive to its higher ranges. Now you want to add a subwoofer that by definition has a much lower resonant frequency. Now you have to damp that resonance but it still exists.
Analogy! Situation is akin to pulling a trailer with your car! Even a well damped suspension on the trailer is going to interfere with your vehicles handling. It’s not easy to ignore the new situation unless you can sync the suspensions.
You have to eliminate the stored energy (grounded at boundary) in the subwoofer. Non resonate bass extension just couples with your mains for an invisible integration! Read the early reviews and that’s what the third party says. It’s just it’s more detail and range with continued research over the years. We can also scale it with ease.
Most of us are familiar with the Siegfried Linkwitz that developed the filters by the same name. The link above is to a page on his site titled issues with loudspeakers where he was (he passed) seeking a discovery for an acoustic termination for the inside of the enclosure. He hypothesized an internal acoustic resistor that would dissipate the excess energy without regard to level and frequency. It remains a challenge to do it is the culmination of the page! We are focusing on the difficult issues as you can see.
The room is reacting to the driver not the driver reacting to the room.
i attached a third octave graph with a 75 hz crossover no filters! This shows a flat response with a bump at 80 Hz. DSP can handle this no problem but no modes of relevance. This is with the MS-6P at wall floor boundary and microphone on the other side of the room about 3ft from the wall. I don’t focus on small variations within each band. Spectral response is based on our hearing and is a standard especially in room measurements.
Don’t add words to what I am saying! Having available a passive sub allows the audiophile to choose their own means of adjusting the crossover or filters! We offer both analog or digital filters for that process! The fact that we are selling a passive sub means no electronic tricks up our sleeves. We have customers that chose Marchand crossovers some with high pass for their mains. There are many available options available that are effective when you solve the acoustic issues acoustically! We have some trying Dirac with success. The other issue that we haven’t discussed is the existence of two bass resonant frequencies and that effect. Your main speakers typically have a well tamed resonant frequency for its woofer that extends the bass. The mass isn’t significantly high so it can be responsive to its higher ranges. Now you want to add a subwoofer that by definition has a much lower resonant frequency. Now you have to damp that resonance but it still exists.
Analogy! Situation is akin to pulling a trailer with your car! Even a well damped suspension on the trailer is going to interfere with your vehicles handling. It’s not easy to ignore the new situation unless you can sync the suspensions.
You have to eliminate the stored energy (grounded at boundary) in the subwoofer. Non resonate bass extension just couples with your mains for an invisible integration! Read the early reviews and that’s what the third party says. It’s just it’s more detail and range with continued research over the years. We can also scale it with ease.
