To switch or not to switch? Melco S-100 or Innuos Phoenix NET switch?

[Frenchrooster]

Greetings Frenchrooster,

Delighted your connections are finally working. We all learned a little bit from your snafu, albeit a little difficult to follow the discussion at times. Glad to know your supporters (dealer and Innuos) helped to resolve the erroneous PhoenixNET exhibiting the wrong IP Address.

When ready, please provide your feedback on the sonic uplift from the 'working' PhoenixNET. Some say it will take ~450 hours for the Mundorf caps and toroidal LPS to fully break-in. Thanks!

Re-tread

Thanks Re-tread. I am running now again the PhoenixNet, but now my streamer and Melco are both connected to it. However I will try the Melco direct connection.
i think the great part of the burning is 4/5 days,, what I experimented with the first Innuos, running outside the app. But as you said, as Blackmorec observed, the final burn in will be longer, due to Mundorph capacI tors. But I haven’t experimented it yet.
i will of course give my impressions. Congrats for your new PhoenixNet to arrive soon.

 

[Exlibris]

Greetings Exlibris,

To refresh the context of my use-case, this is my "current" and "future" states of my digital set-up:

* Current: ISP Modem (JS-2 LPS) -> eRegen (JS-2 LPS) -> Innuos Zenith Mk3 -> PhoenixUSB -> Blue Circle DAC (custom)
* Future: ISP Modem (JS-2 LPS) -> eRegen (JS-2 LPS) -> PhoenixNET -> Innuos Zenith Mk3 -> PhoenixUSB -> Blue Circle DAC (custom)

All signal cabling above is from FTA (Final Touch Audio, a small purveyor from Serbia). Their ethernet cable model is called "Metis"; and their USB cable model is called "Callisto". I believe they are on par similar to the likes of Sablon and/or Shunyata... from reports I have read.

I can report the eRegen employed now (in the current state) brings a very positive sonic uplift to my digital front end. My hope is that the eRegen will positively cascade in combination with the (future state) PhoenixNET, when inserted. I will have to be patient to let the PhoenixNET fully break in (~ 450 hours or so) before final system assessment. Fingers crossed the combination with be better than either alone.

So I am now eagerly committed, as I have recently ordered my PhoenixNET (i.e., paid my Innuos dealer), so now I am just waiting on the production/delivery. The lead time is uncertain, but will be clarified soon, as Innuos told me there may be a delay in the supply chain. It could potentially be 2 to 5 weeks before I receive it. Either way, no problem.

On a sidenote: I have been a distant, long-time admirer of your system on AG. It is very beautiful, indeed. All of your equipment looks like it has great "intention". And I love your architectural back wall, and the low stance of your equipment in your room. I remember when you had an AN M6 preamp, (I think) AN speakers, and your equipment was stacked on uneven wooden blocks. Your system has evolved quite a bit since then. Your Thomas Mayer equip must be simply amazing (spellbinding, is the word that comes to mind).

Re-tread

Thank you very much for the compliments. Yes, I had those two AN pieces quite recently.
I look forward to hearing your report of the PhoenixNET and hope that it turns out to be a great addition to your system.

 

[peter pan]

Greetings Peter Pan,

Thank you for sharing your set-up and implementation details. It helps for "seeing" the full context when reading valuable feedback. Thank you! Congratulations on the PhoenixNET and PhoenixUSB are working so well for you in tandem.

Also, when you get around to upgrading the "stock" ethernet and USB cables, you should get another noticeable uplift in SQ. I suspect you will get another positive uplift when you upgrade the PC's, as well. When you are ready, I would suggest start at the weakest link.

Have a great weekend.

Re-tread

hi re-tread
thank you too, you seem to be a very friendly person.

yes, you are right, treating the weakest point is the way.
actually thats what i did with inserting the innuos duo. the impact is dramatic to say the least. youtube sounds as good as cd or tidal hi-res. well, maybe not exactely, however, it has become very enjoyable. before it was flat and compressed. the best thing, this is not limited to the better recordings or makes the gap even bigger vs bad recordings.
the effect on what you thought were bad recordings is amazing. street artists become three dimensional.
before i enjoyed about 20 percent from youtube, now 80 percent.

well, the weakest point now the cabling and vibration control.
i wonder how much it will further improve.

 

[peter pan]

not that i know, but may be the weakest points now are the powersupply for the computer and router rather than vibration and cabling.
and now, just thinking, may be the weakest point is still what it was in the beginnining...jitter and noise.
so what you people think, would a 2nd pair of phoenix NET&USB be cool or not?

 

[peter pan]

was just reading that a second usb reclocker wont do any good.

so, anybody tried already 2 phoenixNET in series?
thoughts about?

 

[peter pan]

well then, going to try it myself

 

[Re-tread]

Greetings Peter Pan,

Pardon the delayed reply, as I have been very busy at work. Glad to hear your Phoenix "Duo" is vastly improving your YouTube playback experience. Do you stream with Qobuz? Qobuz streams in standard Redbook format, and, also some even High Resolution files. Qobuz is what I use almost exclusively (other than a few internet radio stations, which are unfortunately lossy formats). My prefered format is just standard Redbook (16-bit, 44kHz) files. I don't particularly chase High-Def, or, DSD; but, I don't like MP3 or other lossy formats either. I guess I am a Redbook guy (although I have never stated it like that before ). I can recommend Qobuz - of the streaming services that I am aware of.

I don't have much to suggest about trying to cascade another PhoenixNET in your set-up. I guess you may have to try to find out what works best for you. I will try my first cascading of ethernet switches in the near future when my PhoenixNET arrives in a week or two. I will try the following:

[ISP Modem -> UpTone Audio eRegen Switch -> Innuos PhoenixNET -> Innuos Zenith Mk3 -> Innuos PhoenixUSB -> Blue Circle BC515 DAC -> ]

So, in the future state, I will also try 2 switches in a row: eReg -> PhoenixNET. Thus, I will have to try to find out, likewise. In the meantime, I am trying to learn (read) from the reports, advises, and experiences of others in the on-line community.

Good luck with you testing, and let us know how it goes.

Re-tread

 

[WAVE High Fidelity]

So, in the future state, I will also try 2 switches in a row: eReg -> PhoenixNET. Thus, I will have to try to find out, likewise. In the meantime, I am trying to learn (read) from the reports, advises, and experiences of others in the on-line community.

I look forward to that experiment. I have done it in my system ie comparing eReg + PhoenixNET to just one of each. I also compared each of those three alternatives to pulling the ethernet plug out of the back of my streamer (I was playing locally stored files). I then chose the combination which was closest to unplugging the Ethernet connection and for me that was using just the PhoenixNET.

 

[Griff500]

The PhoenixNET does a fine job but I was most surprised at the difference the Sablon Audio 2020 ethernet cable made. Even using it directly from my router to my streamer I noticed a significant improvement to the sound quality. I wasn’t expecting much, if anything, from an ethernet cable but it was very noticeable.

 

[Re-tread]

I look forward to that experiment. I have done it in my system ie comparing eReg + PhoenixNET to just one of each. I also compared each of those three alternatives to pulling the ethernet plug out of the back of my streamer (I was playing locally stored files). I then chose the combination which was closest to unplugging the Ethernet connection and for me that was using just the PhoenixNET.

Greetings Fourlegs,

Thanks for your feedback. Experience noted . If you don’t mind sharing: Is/was your eRegen (and modem) running on adequate LPS, or, stock SMPS? What device is your PhoenixNet feeding into next (an Innuos device, or another manufacturer)? Fuller context may be helpful for my particular use-case analysis/comparison.

Thank you!
Re-tread

 

[Re-tread]

Greetings everyone. I have an update for this thread. I have some really good news , and some bad news (really... it is just ABA testing delay) . I'll start with the good news:

Good news: my Innuos PhoenixNET arrived this Wednesday (3-days ago), and it was promptly inserted into the following playback chain:

New 'Current State' of Digital Front-End: ISP Modem (JS-2 LPS) -> eRegen (JS-2 LPS) -> PhoenixNET -> Zenith Mk3 -> PhoenixUSB -> BC-515 DAC

Initial Impressions (notes w/ only 4-hours on the PhoenixNET inserted): SQ is definitely cleaner and clearer, more COLORS** revealed in the soundscape. Makes recordings sound more real - pitch, timbre, decay, intra-separation air between instruments - are all improved. At moments, it sounds a bit uptight, but that is to be expected as I am breaking-in concurrently: PN, an ethernet cable, and Innuos stock PC. So, among all those, the flow can sound just a bit "up tight" during certain dynamic/complex passages (moments on recordings). The bass seems just a little "lessened", but perhaps it will come back with more finesse, as the cables, caps, and toroidal all break-in (and the PN's OCXO warms up/settles in).

** COLORS - I am very excited about this development. Previously my system sounded very "black and white" (think of photography) - graphic and dramatic, but lacking full character of instruments. Now my horns sound brass (yellow), piano chords sound like copper (oxidized bronze), snare sound light and taunght (white). I can see color in the music better now. I was hoping this day would come, and it sounds like it may be coming to fruition.

Metaphorically, perhaps the "quality" bass (and some of missing lower weight) will resurface after thorough break-in, like a deep whale in the ocean gently breaking the surface after a long submergence. Maybe the lower weight I was hearing previously was just "thick noise floor" noise, and it may never return quite like before, now that the signal is cleaner now. Perhaps the 'complete' lower weight will return with new finesse after the complete PN break-in. I have 2 other Innuous products, and the SQ finally "opened-up" after 500-hours; so, I anticipate this will be the same. So, I will defer making any final assessments. Fingers crossed.

Initial Impressions (at the 24-hour mark): Right now, it seems the sound is calmer and quieter today. More spooky events - things coming out of complete darkness (out of the soundscape). Very nice. More goosebump moments. Still a little shaky (up-tight) on loud transient peaks, when the dynamic energy is peaking in musical passage of the recording, but that is to be expected as the PN's PSU breaks in. [Same thing happened when my Uptone LS-2 LPS was breaking in.] Things are sounding good. The PRAT in the composition is better, too. Familiar music passages feel longer, but also musically tighter, with more rhythmic swing. Like I am hearing these artists on my nascent system for the first time. I am really enjoying the listening experience tonight..., as each song is now an "Experience". Really nice. Wow. I think I am breaking new ground here, as I type.... It is sounding very good right now - I don't want to change a thing...! The system feels very dialed in right now. The only missing part is previous lower weight that the eRegen provided solo previously (pre-PN), but perhaps the 'complete' lower weight will return with finesse after complete break-in.

Tonight (75-hours mark): I am now 75-hours in, and things are still great..! A renewed system in several qualitative, fundamental ways. I would say a new plateau for me (as always, YMMV). I recognize my earlier "impression" notes above could be seen as a little enthusiastic, but that is what I felt at that time - during the new audio experience. Perhaps I have adjusted to the new sound also, but I still like what I am hearing (and experiencing). I am still waiting/hoping for some of the 'complete' bottom end to return, but I have a far way to go for complete break-in. I will leave the digital front-end running 24-hours a day for the next month (or so). 500-hours should be a good duration.

A-B-A Testing Notes: I have not pulled the eRegen or the PN out yet (I will attempt that after a few more days), as they are both in the new current state. My current hypothesis is that the eRegen is adding value to the PN. I will know more after Test 1 and Test 2.

A-B-A Test 1 Itinerary: (+ PN)
A - eRegen
B - eRegen + PN
A - eRegen

Test 1: I have gone from A to B (now), and I will go from B back to A to verify impact of PhoenixNET; but I want to give the PN some more break-in time before (pulling it back out and) going back to A.

A-B-A Test 2 Itinerary: (- eRegen)
A - eRegen + PN
B - minus eRegen
A - eRegen + PN

Test 2: I will pull the eRegen after PN break-in as well, to see what SQ impact the eRegen brings to the PN, when cascading them both in series.

Thanks for your patience, everyone.

Also, I have included two fresh photos, if helpful:
* Closeup of Innuos "trilogy" stacked on Symposium Acoustics "Svelte Shelf"
* Photo of eRegen (and JS-2 LPS) behind left monitor

That's it for now. I will keep you posted if/when I have any meaningful updates.

Hope everyone is remaining well and safe during this extended pandemic episode. Please take care.

Re-tread

 

[peter pan]

hi re-tread
cool the phoenix arrived and very interesting report.
dont worry about the bass. it will come back very soon and will be better than before. the first couple of days are strange, then it changes to constantly to very positive.

i did get my second innuos before yesterday
well, it didnt work together. "no internet connection" was coming up all the time.
at least i could compare the fresh phoenix vs the broken-in phoenix and the difference is dramatic.
later, just for whatever, i used output 2 instead of 3 of the already broken-in unit and suddenly the duo worked together!!

the second unit is up and down breaking in as well.
the good hours were amazing. i thought it brought even more than the first phoenix including the reclocker!!
finally massive bass from streaming. more weight.
and, what the first didnt improve or i couldnt dedect, more naturalness and better timing. more relaxed in combination with more dynamic contrast.
the more relaxed element is soooo good, as the nervosity is a prominent problem in streaming.
lets see how it is in two weeks.

 

[Re-tread]

Greetings Peter Pan,

Thanks for your insight/advice on my "seemingly missing" bass after PN insertion. I am at 100-hours now on the PN, and I think the bass may be coming back a bit. I suspect it (the sound envelope) will subtly fluctuate UP and DOWN as the PN opens up to is final bloom. Much appreciated. Fingers crossed.

Keep us posted on your interesting and unique test use-case, likewise [PN -> PN]. The idea of this implementation is interesting.

Re-tread

 

[peter pan]

good evening
i am praying for your bass really hope you end up as happy as me.
80 hours here on the 2nd pn and had a great day with it. cant imagine anymore improvement.
it is absolutely incredible. cd quality from youtube and the picture has improved as well.
more naturalness. cant be true but i belive so.
that said, with the 2nd pn the sound is so good i can close the eyes and dont need a picture.

 

[Re-tread]

Greetings Peter Pan,

Thanks for your kind gesture. My listening notes as of tonight (right at 125-hours on the PN): the highs conveyed seem a little pinched (and just a little 'metallic' sounding), and just a little uptight - like just so every slightly 'forced' sounding. Not all details are forthcoming, the soundstage is slightly collapsed (soundstage and space was bigger, easier, and airer before). I really think it is just the typical UPs and DOWNs of the break-in process. Based on my experience breaking-in other Innuos products previously, and the feedback from others, this is typical Innuos break-in behavior. I believe the PN will fully blossom (and return to it's new normal) when the it is ready. This should be around the 400 - 450 hour mark. When the final break-in relents, the "ease" of the flow and the music should return. Thanks.

Your PN -> PN experiment is very interesting. When ready, keep us posted on the specific sonic uplift of going from 1 PN to 2 PN. From you comment in post #114 above, you baseline was:

modem---phoenixNET----brentford0125----phoenixUSB----meitner ma-3-----audionet HUMBOLDT-----wilson tunetot

So, given the above, both of your PN's are inserted consecutively after the modem, and before the brentford, correct?

Re-tread

 

[Ultrafast69]

First I ran the AQVox SE with excellent results then later the etherRegen with a Gigafoil V4 filter with even better results, then I connected both which was concluded the best result in my system. The switches are connected via a Blue Jean Cat 6 cable to break the ground - each set up is properly LPS’d with excellent DC and RJ45 cables.

So why change something that works well?

Perhaps deep down we all know the answer.

So after much success with Intona USB cables, I wanted to try the Intona Network switch I have sitting on the sidelines, there is a 48v power supply and the switch is POE though nothing I have is POE. Intona says POE would not activate as there is no demand for it, and I’m wondering if there is still a higher level of performance with perhaps increase voltage and draw.

While I like the etherRegen, I do know the etheRegen runs at 109 Degrees Fahrenheit and gotta think that affects the signal despite it sounding great.

My plan is to feed my server direct from it but will check first to make sure of no problems and will follow up.

 

[kennyb123]

While I like the etherRegen, I do know the etheRegen runs at 109 Degrees Fahrenheit and gotta think that affects the signal despite it sounding great.

You have that backwards. It’s running at peak performance when it’s running hot. The designer, John Swenson, has said repeatedly that it was designed to run hot and people should ignore it.

 

[Ultrafast69]

You have that backwards. It’s running at peak performance when it’s running hot. The designer, John Swenson, has said repeatedly that it was designed to run hot and people should ignore it.

Perhaps, but it already went back once though as indicated the sound quality is there.

 

[Re-tread]

My take on this is: some devices are designed and expected to run hot, for example, class-A amplifiers; and some believe class-A amps sound the best of all topologies (which sound their best when fully warmed up), which can run quite hot - by design. JS’s design runs hot by design, likewise, and is stated to operate well under/within its designed temperature limits.

 

[peter pan]

Greetings Peter Pan,

Thanks for your kind gesture. My listening notes as of tonight (right at 125-hours on the PN): the highs conveyed seem a little pinched (and just a little 'metallic' sounding), and just a little uptight - like just so every slightly 'forced' sounding. Not all details are forthcoming, the soundstage is slightly collapsed (soundstage and space was bigger, easier, and airer before). I really think it is just the typical UPs and DOWNs of the break-in process. Based on my experience breaking-in other Innuos products previously, and the feedback from others, this is typical Innuos break-in behavior. I believe the PN will fully blossom (and return to it's new normal) when the it is ready. This should be around the 400 - 450 hour mark. When the final break-in relents, the "ease" of the flow and the music should return. Thanks.

Your PN -> PN experiment is very interesting. When ready, keep us posted on the specific sonic uplift of going from 1 PN to 2 PN. From you comment in post #114 above, you baseline was:

modem---phoenixNET----brentford0125----phoenixUSB----meitner ma-3-----audionet HUMBOLDT-----wilson tunetot

So, given the above, both of your PN's are inserted consecutively after the modem, and before the brentford, correct?

Re-tread

very interesting.
you are in the metallic hours and happen to relay on your experience from the pUSB. very cool and i think you are right. i did explore the very same after same hours. and then it became suddenly great and had nomore drops.
the break in of the second pn is different. less obvious, no metallic hours. the drop is that sometimes it sounds just as good as with 1 pn. however, the duo is over that point and melted together. i no longer see them as pn1 and pn2. my pn2 is a loaner but wont go back.
the good news is, it is awesome.
the bad news, i truly think it takes two.....or three or four.
i let it break in quietly now and report back in a couple of weeks.