Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[sbnx]

Hi Sbnx,
That's a good point, but you strike me as being very, very experienced - likely than most of the dealers. My hunch is that 90 percent plus people would take them on it.

What kind of room treatments do you have and did you end up tweaking any?

My room was designed by Rives and built by me. You can see many of the design elements they used in their rooms (Like Mike L.'s room). e.g. the big poly diffuser in the front, the sawtooth "diffusers" on the side, the slanted sealing panels and the big soffit. Most of their rooms had some combination of these. If I knew then what I know now I would not do it this way. With my former speakers I had added quite a few panels and tube traps to the room to help control the bass. I have removed almost all of that with the Trios and the sound is superior to what I had. I don't think I am done yet. There are a few more panels that I am going to play with removing (mainly the ones you see on the sidewall with the pictures).

 

[adyc]

All, here is a video of me trying to explain adjusting rake and azimuth for the Trio. I am certainly no youtube star so forgive the "raw-ness" of the video.

I can’t see the video. It says private. How do I get permission?

 

[sbnx]

I can’t see the video. It says private. How do I get permission?

Sorry, i fixed it. It is now “unlisted” so you should be able to see it.

 

[Germanboxers]

Sorry, i fixed it. It is now “unlisted” so you should be able to see it.

Great video, Todd. Makes it clear that a good level such as what you have used will be necessary to get a precise setup. Perhaps I missed it, but what was the angle on the wedge you used?

 

[sbnx]

Hello Jordan,

The wedge is 2.5 degrees. If you decide to go this route you can purchase it from the big box online store. Search "Torch 2.5 Degree Universal Axle Shim"

​

 

[Ron Resnick]

my room which is 22X28X12

Perfect dimensions! (I am envious.)

 

[spiritofmusic]

Perfect dimensions! (I am envious.)

Haha, not for everyone. My old room was 27x29x13, and a tougher horse to tame doesn't exist.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Haha, not for everyone. My old room was 27x29x13, and a tougher horse to tame doesn't exist.

As a layman I think that may be because 27 x 29 is too close to square, as is my 20 x 24. 22 x 28 is more rectangular.

 

[Kozak170]

All, here is a video of me trying to explain adjusting rake and azimuth for the Trio. I am certainly no youtube star so forgive the "raw-ness" of the video.

Thank you for taking the time to make this video that clearly explains the key points related to speaker azimuth and rake angel.
Can I ask a few more questions, one about the distance between the tweeters and the other, have you placed the spacehorns behind the Trios in the same position as they are or horizontally to check the differences?
Of course, it is clear that if they are behind the Trios, it will be visually affected, but as Jim Smith said, In terms of sheer musical involvement he always preferred to have basshorns reasonably close to the rear of the Trio horns.

 

[spiritofmusic]

As a layman I think that may be because 27 x 29 is too close to square, as is my 20 x 24. 22 x 28 is more rectangular.

Ron, it was also a lot to do with the construction/materials as well.
Concrete glass hardwood, a big cube with *nine* corners (aka places for nasty nodes to collect). Todd obviously has the ideal for such a sized room.

 

[sbnx]

Thank you for taking the time to make this video that clearly explains the key points related to speaker azimuth and rake angel.
Can I ask a few more questions, one about the distance between the tweeters and the other, have you placed the spacehorns behind the Trios in the same position as they are or horizontally to check the differences?
Of course, it is clear that if they are behind the Trios, it will be visually affected, but as Jim Smith said, In terms of sheer musical involvement he always preferred to have basshorns reasonably close to the rear of the Trio horns.
View attachment 109442

Kozak, I guess you could say that I use a bit of a hybrid approach to speaker setup. I use REW to take acoustic measurents to get a rough idea of how the speaker is interactin with the room at different locations. I then use this to guide me toward a rough location for the speaker. Once I arrive in the rough area I fine tune the position by ear.

So getting to your question. In the video you can see the blue "sawtooth diffuser". It has 5 panels. I started by measuring the space horn in the first panel and pushed it back one panel at a time measuring each time until I reached the back corner. Interestingly, with the space horn in the second panel I get the flattest bass response by a good margin. Moving further back a big dip deveops in the 60-80Hz region. So in the region of the 2nd panel is where the space horn is currently with the Trio beside it. I have not tried pulling the space horn further away from the sidewall as I really do not like having such large objects between the speakers. I may try that at some point just to see what happens. Who knows, maybe it will turn out the best.

Where ever that spacehorn goes it will have to be integrated with the Trio. I have experimented with this. As expected changes in height, toe-in and rake of the space horn affect the way the bass sounds and integrates. One issue I currently have is that the space horn is "sqeezed" between the wall and the Trio. This does not allow as much toe-in adjustment as I might like. I may end up moving the main speaker more toward the center and see what happens.

Currently things in the setup space are stalled as the new cables are running in. I have about 4 days of continuous play so pretty much getting there.

 

[sbnx]

Ron, it was also a lot to do with the construction/materials as well.
Concrete glass hardwood, a big cube with *nine* corners (aka places for nasty nodes to collect). Todd obviously has the ideal for such a sized room.

Every room has demons. Yes, even custom built, accoustically treated rooms. The hard part is finding them and figuring out what you are going to do with them.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Every room has demons. Yes, even custom built, accoustically treated rooms. The hard part is finding them and figuring out what you are going to do with them.

only took me 11 years and a huge degree of personal learning to get my 'perfect' room figured out.

a really sorted out room is mostly sweat equity.

if i had to start over, not sure i have it in me to do it again. a huge commitment.

 

[DSkip]

My imperfect room was treated heavily for years. Once I learned proper setup technique, I've eliminated 70% of the treatments and left the ones that are critical. For instance, I have two fiberglass cylinders in the back corners of my room. One side reinforces the high frequencies unnaturally whilst the other side reinforces the low frequencies. Given my needs, I just can't get these issues resolved through speaker setup. There are so many other elements that I thought were room issues that were merely setup issues.

I believe Todd has the tools and the setup ability to bring out what these speakers are capable of and I'm very intrigued. I hope I can get ears on them sometime soon (wink, wink, Todd!). The ability to do this setup is a rarity today and I completely understand his position on hiring a dealer for setup.

 

[caesar]

All, here is a video of me trying to explain adjusting rake and azimuth for the Trio. I am certainly no youtube star so forgive the "raw-ness" of the video.

Truly impressive. You make 97 percent plus of dealers look like 6 year olds playing in the park. Although, personally, I would have used their help to get the bohemoths into my house, even if I had your skills and knowledge

 

[caesar]

My room was designed by Rives and built by me. You can see many of the design elements they used in their rooms (Like Mike L.'s room). e.g. the big poly diffuser in the front, the sawtooth "diffusers" on the side, the slanted sealing panels and the big soffit. Most of their rooms had some combination of these. If I knew then what I know now I would not do it this way. With my former speakers I had added quite a few panels and tube traps to the room to help control the bass. I have removed almost all of that with the Trios and the sound is superior to what I had. I don't think I am done yet. There are a few more panels that I am going to play with removing (mainly the ones you see on the sidewall with the pictures).

Hi Sbnx,
Can you please elaborate on this? Generally speaking, bass traps in corners and at times on the front wall - if not over done / over-dampen the room, sucking the life out of the music - helps control the bass and increases transparency. Are you looking to remove the treatments this because of the benefits of the large subs? Or did you find your room was overly dead? or something else?

 

[caesar]

I suspect that adding more spacehorns would add a sense of ease and effortlessness ot the presentation. I know that in my room which is 22X28X12 that two pair of 12" woofers provides sufficient bass. I curretnly have the spacehorn volume at -5 and it is already 3 dB louder than the main trio. I have plenty of headroom there. Adding additional spacehorns may also allow one to DSP below 35Hz and extend the bass depth. I personally would prefer to spend those dollars buying a pair of PureLow subs and get the ultimate in lo end extension. My current plan is to use the WIlson ActivX crossover with a pair of amps and integrate my pair of WB Torus subs from 35Hz on down. I will see how that goes. But that won't happen until the main horns and spacehorns are fully set.

I would like to add that in my demo at Angie's place Jerome had a pair of singles stacked on a pair of duals. He A/B's this for me several times. I very much preferred thesound with only the pair of dual spacehorns playing. I don't know if it was simply integration or what but I the second set of woofer just didn't work in that setup.

Likewise, I find your last paragraph going against conventional wisdom. Common philosophy among the room and subwoofer guys, over - simplifying, is that one should add as many subs as possible to excite the room and achieve bass wave cancellation.

Any thoughts on why, as someone would expect the opposite?

 

[adyc]

Likewise, I find your last paragraph going against conventional wisdom. Common philosophy among the room and subwoofer guys, over - simplifying, is that one should add as many subs as possible to excite the room and achieve bass wave cancellation.

Any thoughts on why, as someone would expect the opposite?

The keyword is disturbed bass array. Subwoofers placed around the room. Spacehorns are stacked.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Could you put four SpaceHorns in all the corners?

 

[Germanboxers]

Could you put four SpaceHorns in all the corners?

I'm sure Todd is much more qualified to answer this question but I'll take a quick shot: the spacehorns might not "disappear" as a sound source if placed in all four corners.

Typically, when such an approach is attempted the subs are limited to low frequencies where sound is omni-directional, perhaps 50Hz or even lower, the frequency range where sound is more felt than heard. The spacehorns, however, need to integrate with the Trios' lower midrange horn in the 100Hz range where I suspect there is still some directionality. Probably wouldn't be a good effect to *hear* a sound source coming from behind you.

Not an expert by any means so hopefully more knowledgeable members will chime in.