Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Kozak170]

Jacob's new trios same color as his previous wamms

 

[sbnx]

Jacob's new trios same color as his previous wamms

Do you know who made this video? Given its short duration I am wondering/concerned that it is "bootleg". (meaning someone shot the video while at Jacobs and posted it without his permission). That would be very un-cool.

 

[LL21]

Interesting! I have to say, after years of seeing photos of large (very large) equipment go into JH's room...this is the first time when his room seems full! Those basshorns are massive!

Then again, so is his soundstage I bet! Will be interesting to read about it!

 

[Kozak170]

Do you know who made this video? Given its short duration I am wondering/concerned that it is "bootleg". (meaning someone shot the video while at Jacobs and posted it without his permission). That would be very un-cool.

I saw it somewhere on Facebook about 4 months ago, of course he still hasn't officially shown a picture of his new system.

 

[caesar]

seems obvious to me. the itron is also an amazing choice for many reasons. i heard it at Axpona 22' on the G3 and at the Seattle show this past june on the AG Duo.GT. but it's not darTZeel. i think especially in direct compare to the itron, the darTZeel will give you linearity and speed that most tubes would not. it might perfectly split the difference between tubes and the itron in presentation, yet still provide tube-like liquid and grain less in contrast to the itron which the G3 would fully reveal. and ideal balance. also the dart 108 mk2 stereo might be a great choice.

the darts would also likely be more of a piece with the speed of the Spacehorn's compared to many tube choices.

if you were putting solid state on AG it would need to be a very simple circuit with zero negative feedback. dart is one of those.

i don't 'know', but my guess is it's more that Harley already has the Wadax. and Valin stays away from both Wadax and dCS and checks out other digital.

Wadax takes too much real estate for Fremer. he could do a review (but would not since Harley has already done it), but not a long term Fremer choice.

and Angie is only the Canadian distributor for Wadax, not USA.

Hey Mike,
Yeah very interesting about Dartzeel and iTron. Seems like iTrons are being marketed as the "next, big innovation". And people talk of superior "synergy" since they are "built in"....

Yet here in this thread, we have people who prefer iTrons, Uwiik and his guys preferring Kondo to iTrons, and now guys preferring Dartzeel to iTrons..

All synergy means in high end audio is a small group of guys liking some audio flavor and using that buzzword, "synergy", to impart a reason of more heft, beyond their subjective taste.

Although Heilbrunn is more known for fancy vocabulary than for comparisons, let's hope he does the community a service and compares the dart to itron. After all, we all to some degree living in dhimmitude to the popular, hi-fi and sterile sounding brands due to lack of comparisons.


As for Wadax, interesting again. In the original Analytical Sound Review of the Wadax, American Sound of Canada was listed as the North American distributor when I browsed the original issue at my buddy's house. I have no information about this, but seems like Wadax has taken away the USA distribution from American Sound, and has taken this function in house, a la Gryphon, Brinkmann, MBL, etc.

Yet in the video SBNX posted of the systems in the American Sound woman's house, she still has the wadax in her house in another system.

So maybe Wadax fukked over American Sound, and she is choosing not to show the Avantgarde with Wadax at shows to get back at them??? Maybe makes sense at a US show like Axpona. But why would she shortchange a world class speaker at her own house? Again, claims of "synergy", per the video ; her taste more likely. But if a Wadax owner came over and asked to put Wadax digital into the system, he would likely find "synergy" , per his taste...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hey Mike,
Yeah very interesting about Dartzeel and iTron. Seems like iTrons are being marketed as the "next, big innovation". And people talk of superior "synergy" since they are "built in"....

Yet here in this thread, we have people who prefer iTrons, Uwiik and his guys preferring Kondo to iTrons, and now guys preferring Dartzeel to iTrons..

All synergy means in high end audio is a small group of guys liking some audio flavor and using that buzzword, "synergy", to impart a reason of more heft, beyond their subjective taste.

Although Heilbrunn is more known for fancy vocabulary than for comparisons, let's hope he does the community a service and compares the dart to itron. After all, we all to some degree living in dhimmitude to the popular, hi-fi and sterile sounding brands due to lack of comparisons.

i expect Jacob is writing a full review on the G3, so we can read his views about this. i view the itron as a wonderful approach, with many real world advantages. love the elegance of it. i have not heard a mature system fully sorted with it, but i read Todd's system is getting there......not personally heard Jacob's system. likely the itron's upside is amazing. i know Roy Gregory liked it in his G3 review.

As for Wadax, interesting again. In the original Analytical Sound Review of the Wadax, American Sound of Canada was listed as the North American distributor when I browsed the original issue at my buddy's house. I have no information about this, but seems like Wadax has taken away the USA distribution from American Sound, and has taken this function in house, a la Gryphon, Brinkmann, MBL, etc.

Yet in the video SBNX posted of the systems in the American Sound woman's house, she still has the wadax in her house in another system.

So maybe Wadax fukked over American Sound, and she is choosing not to show the Avantgarde with Wadax at shows to get back at them??? Maybe makes sense at a US show like Axpona. But why would she shortchange a world class speaker at her own house? Again, claims of "synergy", per the video ; her taste more likely. But if a Wadax owner came over and asked to put Wadax digital into the system, he would likely find "synergy" , per his taste...

finally figured out who you really are......Oliver Stone's son. right?

i assume you don't bet any of your rent money on your hunches.

 

[bonzo75]

Jacob's new trios same color as his previous wamms

this is quite poor sounding.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I do think there are distinctly different kinds of horn lovers.

There are those who favour the more traditional horn and even vintage only horn lovers and there are the new horn types who favour dsp and active setups.

I get that it is just a preference and just for me I’ve never heard a horn setup with anything other than SET that I have really connected with. I’ve tried though.

It also makes complete sense to me that someone who is coming from solid state and box speakers (or electrostatic or ribbon panel) to horns are more likely to be able to connect with horn driven with solid state amps initially and some just as easily will settle long term that way.

Once you get to class d and dsp and horns these are not in my experience really the same kinds of horn enthusiasts as those who are innately or distinctly and fundamentally horn SET types of horn lovers.

 

[Hear Here]

I do think there are distinctly different kinds of horn lovers.

There are those who favour the more traditional horn and even vintage only horn lovers and there are the new horn types who favour dsp and active setups.

I get that it is just a preference and just for me I’ve never heard a horn setup with anything other than SET that I have really connected with. I’ve tried though.

It also makes complete sense to me that someone who is coming from solid state and box speakers (or electrostatic or ribbon panel) to horns are more likely to be able to connect with horn driven with solid state amps initially and some just as easily will settle long term that way.

Once you get to class d and dsp and horns these are not in my experience really the same kinds of horn enthusiasts as those who are innately or distinctly and fundamentally horn SET types of horn lovers.

"Horn Lovers", "SET Lovers"? Why should horn "users" be obsessed to the point of being "lovers"?

I'm a horn user but only because they present music in a way I find realistic, involving and exciting. Frankly I couldn't care whether my music comes from horns, or electrostatics, or a robotic statue - it's the music that reaches my ears I care about.

When I switched from SETs (the type of amp a lot of people seem to think is best for horns) to solid state, I home auditioned 12 amps of various flavours (A, AB, D, etc) and chose the amp that presented music in a way I most enjoyed. I was expecting one of the Class A amps to win over my affections, but it turned out that a Class D amp won the day. Who cares what equipment they use, or how much it costs - as long as it sounds fantastic!

 

[sbnx]

I do think there are distinctly different kinds of horn lovers.

There are those who favour the more traditional horn and even vintage only horn lovers and there are the new horn types who favour dsp and active setups.

I get that it is just a preference and just for me I’ve never heard a horn setup with anything other than SET that I have really connected with. I’ve tried though.

It also makes complete sense to me that someone who is coming from solid state and box speakers (or electrostatic or ribbon panel) to horns are more likely to be able to connect with horn driven with solid state amps initially and some just as easily will settle long term that way.

Once you get to class d and dsp and horns these are not in my experience really the same kinds of horn enthusiasts as those who are innately or distinctly and fundamentally horn SET types of horn lovers.

I think what you said is largely true. This reminds me of a video where someone interviewed Dave Wilson and he talked about "Audio Religions". This is where people BELIEVE in a certain thing that is required for audio to work. Tubes or SET or Horns or Electrostats or a certain type of tube or whatever. I guess this is part of human nature to get locked into some decision we have made or one experience that was the best we have heard and think that is the only solution that works.

I guess my "religion" is setup and system optimization. It doesn't matter whether the system is horns or a statue; tubes or SS; analog or digital. Any of these can sound horribly bad or skin tingling good. Proper attention must be paid to the details if we want great music reproduction.

 

[Carlos269]

I think what you said is largely true. This reminds me of a video where someone interviewed Dave Wilson and he talked about "Audio Religions". This is where people BELIEVE in a certain thing that is required for audio to work. Tubes or SET or Horns or Electrostats or a certain type of tube or whatever. I guess this is part of human nature to get locked into some decision we have made or one experience that was the best we have heard and think that is the only solution that works.

I guess my "religion" is setup and system optimization. It doesn't matter whether the system is horns or a statue; tubes or SS; analog or digital. Any of these can sound horribly bad or skin tingling good. Proper attention must be paid to the details if we want great music reproduction.

And based on your criteria, or “Audio Religion” and experience with the same speaker system, do you find the video posted above of Jacob Heilbrunn’s Trio G3 system to sound good, and that proper attention has been paid to its setup and optimization?

 

[Golum]

Hervé Delétraz (darTZeel) drives his private Klipschorns (also well over 100dB) with his 468 monos.

Picture taken first time I was there; second time all was much cleaner and neater and a bit differently positioned.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I do think there are distinctly different kinds of horn lovers.

There are those who favour the more traditional horn and even vintage only horn lovers and there are the new horn types who favour dsp and active setups.

I think this slices and dices the pie the wrong way. I don't think it has to do with different kinds of horn aficionados per se.

I think it has to do with audiophiles who cotton to the contemporary high-and audio sound as cultivated by the magazines, and audiophiles who don't. I think it's about this bifurcation in sonic preferences, not a bifurcation in loudspeaker preference, horns or otherwise.

I think this bifurcation in sonic preferences about contemporary high-end audio sound can be mapped to all different kinds of loudspeakers and systems, and not just to contemporary horn aficionados versus traditional horn aficionados.

 

[sbnx]

And based on your criteria, or “Audio Religion” and experience with the same speaker system, do you find the video posted above of Jacob Heilbrunn’s Trio G3 system to sound good, and that proper attention has been paid to its setup and optimization?

I personally think all videos sound bad. I would have to hear his system in person to comment on it. I also don't know how much attention he has paid to details. For example, I have no idea what footers if any he is using or why he chose them. I don't know how level he has his components. I don't know how precisely he set each speaker. etc. etc. So I can not comment on that either.

Regarding videos -- I can definitely hear differences. For example Jay at the audio lab usually compares two things. This comparison is in the same room with the same mic sitting in the same position. So if I listen with headphones I can definitely hear the difference between A and B. And I might prefer one over the other using headphones. I do not necessarily think that my preference would translate if I were to listen to A and B while sitting in the room. This is not a skill I am trying to hone.

Perhaps Ked has done this so much that he has built a mental filter on how a phone video would translate to real life experience.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think this slices and dices the pie the wrong way. I don't think it has to do with different kinds of horn aficionados per se.

I think it has to do with audiophiles who cotton to the contemporary high-and audio sound as cultivated by the magazines, and audiophiles who don't. I think it's about this bifurcation in sonic preferences, not a bifurcation in loudspeaker preference, horns or otherwise.

I think this bifurcation in sonic preferences about contemporary high-end audio sound can be mapped to all different kinds of loudspeakers and systems, and not just to contemporary horn aficionados versus traditional horn aficionados.

i don't personally know horns from a bale of hay. i'm just on the outside looking in.

but from reading Ked's travels and his horn viewpoints, and documentation of dozens of horn installations, i think you are way over-simplifying the horn interest landscape. the most profound aspect of horns that i see is just how much DIY activity there is with horns, including levels of dsp and personal builds. guys like Bill. it's a whole sub hobby really and there are plenty of mixtures of all the pieces.

and then commercial horns are all over the board as far as approaches. and trying to separate presentation expectations into two camps is not realistic. that somehow there are 'less pure' horn users. source as a divider also not very usable. maybe if there are 10 horn categories commercial horns with dsp and "digital-only" is one of them. i do see lifestyle packages with horn speakers and dsp/digital sources as products. but to me that is a small corner of horn activity.

 

[Kozak170]

this is quite poor sounding.

The best sounding videos of the new trios are from the Korean distributor.

 

[Ron Resnick]

proper attention has been paid to its setup and optimization?

Carlos, we all can see the trap from a mile away:

-- get member to post video

-- criticize sound

-- recommend Carlos mastering system as solution

 

[Ron Resnick]

i don't personally know horns from a bale of hay. i'm just on the outside looking in.

but from reading Ked's travels and his horn viewpoints, and documentation of dozens of horn installations, i think you are way over-simplifying the horn interest landscape. the most profound aspect of horns that i see is just how much DIY activity there is with horns, including levels of dsp and personal builds. guys like Bill. it's a whole sub hobby really and there are plenty of mixtures of all the pieces.

and then commercial horns are all over the board as far as approaches. and trying to separate presentation expectations into two camps is not realistic. that somehow there are 'less pure' horn users. source as a divider also not very usable. maybe if there are 10 horn categories commercial horns with dsp and "digital-only" is one of them.

I don't disagree. I was just responding to Tao's bifurcation.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The best sounding videos of the new trios are from the Korean distributor.

For my personal preferences I am hearing way, way too much treble energy.

 

[sbnx]

For my personal preferences I am hearing way, way too much treble energy.

This is likely because the phone doesn't pick up low frequency, so the balance is always tilted up.