Top level Audio Note digital vs. MSB? What are the sonic differences?

[morricab]

Nothing great about Theta in the day. It was a very foward and bright sounding dac. The Timbre TT1 was way more musical at that time period.

Ok, I never thought the Gen V sounded bright...it had quite powerful bass in fact.

 

[morricab]

Very organic and dynamic

Like an audio note dac on steroids with a groove pill

My impressions and from what i read from Astrostar, his as well (he owned the AN DAC 5 even).

 

[Al M.]

The glitch is still there. It is moved away from zero crossing but still there.

As Opus said, the -90 dB sinewave, the point of contention, is clean on the 2nd generation DAC.

Where is the proof that it is not affecting the sound? If the two Yggy's sound the same this is not the proof. If other's think it is bright in version one, where is the proof of the brightness root cause if version 2 sounds the same? Circular argument... It would have to come from either external comparison with other DACs or somehow Moffat would have to make a glitch free version and then see if the brightness is gone (I know you don't think it is bright and I haven't heard it so it is hypothetical to some extent).

"It would have to come from either external comparison with other DACs"...

As I said:

It seems you haven't quite paid attention to the comparisons I described.

 

[microstrip]

Same here. The designer of my Schiit Yggdrasil DAC uses a DAC chip, the AD 5791 BRUZ, but nobody else uses it for audio. It's a precision DAC chip for medical devices and miltary applications, among others. The reason not even the manufacturer recommends it for audio is glitch energy at zero crossing. Yet Mike Moffat who designed my DAC wanted to use the DAC chip for its precision, and apparently because it is a current production ladder DAC chip of high resolution (20 bit; the AD1865N is 18 bit). He found a way to address the glitch energy problem, without the usual sample & hold solution which he says sounds bad. The designer of the AD 5791 DAC chip was very astonished that Moffat got it to work for audio (he commented on this on a thread on the head-fi forum if I remember correctly).(...)

Al. M,

As this chip was not intended for audio, Analog Devices did not specify it using audio specifications. So, all we have in the datasheet are static parameters and settling parameters, that matter to instrumentation, but tell very little about the real audio performance.

I have owned Theta DACs before and can imagine that Mike Moffat still aims at the type of sound he put in his former designs - I must say it was not my cup of tea. However audio is a subjective hobby, if the Yggdrasil matches your system and preference and you are happy with it, great, listen to it and enjoy. But the decision to use such chip has many other technical problems, and measurements are good but not SOTA - just see the comparison of the spectrum of a 50Hz sinewave, DC–1kHz, at 0dBFS (left channel blue, right red; linear frequency scale) of the Yggdrasil (left) and the Vivaldi (right) (graphs taken from the Stereophile online reviews).

As always, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[Al M.]

I have owned Theta DACs before and can imagine that Mike Moffat still aims at the type of sound he put in his former designs - I must say it was not my cup of tea. However audio is a subjective hobby, if the Yggdrasil matches your system and preference and you are happy with it, great, listen to it and enjoy.

I do, very much so, thanks.

But the decision to use such chip has many other technical problems, and measurements are good but not SOTA - just see the comparison of the spectrum of a 50Hz sinewave, DC–1kHz, at 0dBFS (left channel blue, right red; linear frequency scale) of the Yggdrasil (left) and the Vivaldi (right) (graphs taken from the Stereophile online reviews).

As always, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Have I ever claimed that the measurements are all perfect? No. Interesting that you find the measurements of the Vivaldi so important, while you dismiss JA's measurements in other cases, like certain tube amps:

It is meaningless for me. I do not expect recommendations from reviewers, just information and opinions. Many great tube amplifiers have measurements that are much poorer looking. It looks like he needed to counterbalance MF enthusiasm.

Of course, you may say that digital is a different animal than amps. You may have a point, but then the debate arises, to which specific extent are perfect measurements important for either of them?

 

[microstrip]

(...) Have I ever claimed that the measurements are all perfect? No. Interesting that you find the measurements of the Vivaldi so important, while you dismiss measurements in other cases, like certain tube amps:

Of course, you may say that digital is a different animal than amps. You may have a point, but then the debate arises, to which extent are perfect measurements important for either of them?

Surely I am skeptical about typical audio measurements correlation with subjective sound quality or ranking - but you presented technical arguments that had a very simple answer with measurements.

And no, I do not consider the Vivaldi measurements important - I used them just to show an example of a better measurement easily available. For example, for most listening I usually prefer a filter that results in poorer measured performance ...

 

[Loheswaran]

Audio Note has a reputation for "go for the emotions and fukk audiophilia vocabulary" sonic signature. Does this hold for their digital lines also?

MSB is frequently referred to as being in a class of its own in digital, taking the crown from dCS.

Anyone familiar with both? What systems have you heard them in? What are the sonic differences?

I am just curious as to why you have limited your choice to these two?

I had the pleasure of hearing a DAC by Computer Audio Design and was astonished by how natural it sounded without any false mushiness - best digital replay I have heard

 

[bonzo75]

I am just curious as to why you have limited your choice to these two?

I had the pleasure of hearing a DAC by Computer Audio Design and was astonished by how natural it sounded without any false mushiness - best digital replay I have heard

By far not. It's like a computer playing music

 

[caesar]

I am just curious as to why you have limited your choice to these two?

I had the pleasure of hearing a DAC by Computer Audio Design and was astonished by how natural it sounded without any false mushiness - best digital replay I have heard

Almost arbitrarily. These 2 brands seem to be the "consensus best" right now.

The Great Peter Breuninger, the reviewer whose taste most matches that of Harry Pearson today, has called the Audio Note the best DAC he has ever heard.

Also, Martin Colloms has assigned the Audio Note a CRAZY 450 points on his scale, way above anything else. Colloms happens to be an audio Casanova, and has heard this DAC in many different system contexts, so it makes it an interesting data point... https://www.hificritic.com/digital-audio.html

On the MSB side, I have heard that "Sterile" Jon Valin is about to start marketing the MSB. I am not sure that it is a good or bad thing for MSB...Pretty much every brand that guy touches turns that brand into a very polarizing brand...

 

[asiufy]

On the MSB side, I have heard that "Sterile" Jon Valin is about to start marketing the MSB. I am not sure that it is a good or bad thing for MSB...Pretty much every brand that guy touches turns that brand into a very polarizing brand...

Why don't you go and listen to the MSB at a dealer, or ask for a home audition? And do the same for the Audio Note. Then let us know what you think.

MSB goes to all the shows, and they'll be at Axpona again. Audio Note stopped doing shows, I think, but you can still go the dealer route...

Dealers and shows are as much part of the hobby as are these forums, so unless you have no intention of seeking these products out, and just want to stir sh*t up, an audition will go along nicely with a thread like this.

 

[Loheswaran]

Almost arbitrarily. These 2 brands seem to be the "consensus best" right now.

The Great Peter Breuninger, the reviewer whose taste most matches that of Harry Pearson today, has called the Audio Note the best DAC he has ever heard.


Also, Martin Colloms has assigned the Audio Note a CRAZY 450 points on his scale, way above anything else. Colloms happens to be an audio Casanova, and has heard this DAC in many different system contexts, so it makes it an interesting data point... https://www.hificritic.com/digital-audio.html

On the MSB side, I have heard that "Sterile" Jon Valin is about to start marketing the MSB. I am not sure that it is a good or bad thing for MSB...Pretty much every brand that guy touches turns that brand into a very polarizing brand...

I guess that's a pretty good pair of recommendations but do bear in mind that in that rarified cost stratosphere, you really ought to be dictating that you get a home audition as opposed to being limited to show auditions, and whilst I am a huge fan of Colloms and Peter - I am sure there must be several components that they both like that you do not - ie in Colloms case he likes a lot of Naim, Linn, and Audio Research quite a bit - for I personally am not a fan. Roy Gregory in his early years of HiFi Plus had a superb ear - but I digress.

All I can usefully add which you probably already know is that this is gonna be a really enjoyable purchase, and I envy you a bit

 

[caesar]

I guess that's a pretty good pair of recommendations but do bear in mind that in that rarified cost stratosphere, you really ought to be dictating that you get a home audition as opposed to being limited to show auditions, and whilst I am a huge fan of Colloms and Peter - I am sure there must be several components that they both like that you do not - ie in Colloms case he likes a lot of Naim, Linn, and Audio Research quite a bit - for I personally am not a fan. Roy Gregory in his early years of HiFi Plus had a superb ear - but I digress.

All I can usefully add which you probably already know is that this is gonna be a really enjoyable purchase, and I envy you a bit

Thanks. Just exploring for now...

 

[Al M.]

I meant he introduced a digital offset so the glitch, instead of being at digital zero was moved a little bit away from digital zero. Back in the mists of time, Philips did this with the SAA7220+TDA1541 combination, there's 0x20 added in the filter to move the DAC's glitch away from the zero crossing.

Thanks for the info, Opus.

 

[KeithR]

Why don't you go and listen to the MSB at a dealer, or ask for a home audition? And do the same for the Audio Note. Then let us know what you think.

MSB goes to all the shows, and they'll be at Axpona again. Audio Note stopped doing shows, I think, but you can still go the dealer route...

Dealers and shows are as much part of the hobby as are these forums, so unless you have no intention of seeking these products out, and just want to stir sh*t up, an audition will go along nicely with a thread like this.

+1

Instead of just trying to stir the pot with dumb threads.

 

[kevinkwann]

...trying to stir the pot with dumb threads.

+1

 

[Pb Blimp]

+1

Instead of just trying to stir the pot with dumb threads.

Ya but what would we all do without a dumb thread once in a while.

PS: IMO, the MSB Reference sounds a lot like good analog. Don't know Audio Note.

 

[caesar]

Gentlemen, I would be very concerned. Valin could destroy your beloved brand.

 

[asiufy]

Gentlemen, I would be very concerned. Valin could destroy your beloved brand.

I'm sure he will. In your mind.

 

[KeithR]

Gentlemen, I would be very concerned. Valin could destroy your beloved brand.

Why would I care about a guy I haven’t read in years as opposed to owning MSB and demoing their top shelf stuff a number of times.

 

[Legolas]

Yes, I agree, get an audition, or this thread becomes the battle of prices equates to performance, which isn't always the case.
BUT I can add a bit more before we all get bored of this thread....

I owned the Audio Note DAC 5 Special V2 (built 2008) for 1.5 years in my current system. I sold it back to the same seller last November, (who tried the Aqua La Scala and didn't like it).

Before the DAC 5 arrived, I had home demoes on DAVE, MSB Platinum IV (used but current at that time firmware I was told) inc MSB CDP, CH Precision C1 DAC full day demo, Naim CD555 (used) a Lampizator GG - think it was early 2017 model, and a few other DACs. My DAC during this period was my maxed out Audio Note Kit DAC 4.1 which has AN UK DAC 5 digital board, AN UK 496 I/Vs as in the DAC 5, many AN Kassia caps and crucially Duelund Copper Cast on the gain stage, and a big Duelund on the PS postion. Nice NOS tubes and a Bendix used for the 6X5 on the PS.

The Kit DAC beat all comers last year. It just sounded more real, smoother, slightly warm but very detailed and dynamic.

The AN UK DAC 5 Special with AN copper caps on the gain stage was way too coloured and slow for my tastes. In 2 weeks I replaced the AN copper coupling caps with Duelunds. This opened I up very nicely, now we were talking. It was marginally ahead of the kit DAC at that point.

Fast forward to 3 weeks ago, and my Aries Cerat Kassandra Ref II landed. Wow, this is on another level completely. Whereas the non AN DACs all did some things very well, they never did all the things to my requirements, something was still not there for me. The DAC 5 was diometrically opposite the MSB and DAVE, and closer to the Naim. As in smooth and analogue sounding for want of a quick summary of it's signature. Detail was there, just not thrown in your face, very easy to live with in fact.

I think (good guess) that the AN UK DACs are voiced on full AN systems, obviously, and feed their SETS and AN-E speakers. So here we have a coloured speaker as a datum point IMO. I dislike the AN-E, a simple 2 way with minimal bracing etc. I don't want an all AN system, it is too coloured and too expensive for the performance on offer. But I liked their DACs and in other none AN systems.

So the signature of the DAC 5, and also my maxed out kit 4.1 DAC was pretty close to my ideal. Enjoying the music, no stressing over the tech, how it got there.

The Kassandra builds on that signature but trounces it completely. It has all the natural timbre you could want or crave, but has amazing dynamics and drive, lots of detail (more than the AN, close to the MSB, maybe even more) but it all sounds cohesive, very natural. For example I am finding I am playing not only my whole Redbook collection now, not avoiding certain recordings, but I am also playing everything louder. I can't get enough of the sound TBH.

Back to the AN DAC 5, I have heard the DAC 5 Signature and it is VERY close to my Special version with the Duelunds in it.

The DAC 5 Special retails at £30K, the Signature £45-50K. Prices are hard to track down as 'hidden' on the web, but I had those fairly accurate prices from a UK dealer last year. The Kassandra is under £20K. So there we are.....

The AN DAC 5 Fifth Element, I can imagine it is better than the DAC 5. But how much better? It has a doubled up PS, a tube on the SPDIF input, few more BGs and bigger I/V trans, and silver output trans. The gain stage is the same. I have a feeling the AN DACs need an AN CDP to shine. It doesn't appear to me there is any error or re-clocking going on in any of the AN DACs, so there must be a clock in their CDP on the Philips pro mech PCB? BTW that pro mech costs 450 USD....

The Fifth Element costs £96K, and the CDP costs £92K (from memory off the review). That pitches it as the most expensive digital system so far I think? And it can't do servers, only CDP and SPDIF.

On the digital PCB in the DAC 5 and Fifth Element, it is basically the same as the one in the old DAC 4 going back to 2004. Simple 4 regs, single AD1865 chip (though great chip) no filtering (good) but they still fill up the De-Emph circuit with parts. Why? That is not used anymore. My point here is, are AN really saying that digital PCB is so perfect, it doesn't need an update or upgrade to it? I question that idea. The gain stage is a two step (gain through both tubes, not a tube per side) and the DAC 5 only output 1.6v according to AN UK. Output impedance is still quite high as well for an output transformer design at 300 ohms. The Kassandra puts out a healthy 10v at 55 ohms, or 6v at 18 ohms. I also think the Kassandra has no coupling caps on the gain stage, unlike the AN DACs. This probably is part of the speed and transparency to the Kassandra, alied to it's huge 16 chip AD1865 array and huge seudo battery PS, huge caps in the PS and huge output transformers. Did I say huge?

Anyway, my view is obvious here, I think the AN DACs sound very good, are very overpriced, and don't seem to have moved on since around 2008 (my DAC 5).

But I will give them some credit, they have / had some good ideas back then such as:

1. NOS
2. Tubes in the PS
3. Tubed gain stage
4. Output transformers
5. I/V stage done with a transformer
6. Great sounding chip in the AD1865
7. No digital filtering
8. Class A no negative feedback

But cheap bent steel chassis which part from looks does nothing to negate microphonics.

So in my view, they are great at timbre, easy going sound, very realistic. But lack world class dynamics, have soggy lower bass extension and limited upper treble resolution (in the right amount). It is a design sat in the warmer calmer camp of the DACs, and possibly the opposite of say a dCS?

Hope this helps.....