Toward a Better WBF…

[microstrip]

I agree Brad. Better to me means it sound more like the real thing.

Well, since long it is considered that stereo sound reproduction is so far from the real thing that "sounds more like the real thing" is too ambiguous to be of real value in discussions - too dependent on listener. We all want the orchestra or the singer in our rooms.

Does new technology do that? Perhaps or perhaps not.

Many think that the new technology can help to create a more enjoyable and rewarding listening experience more times. Surely this does not invalidate the great accomplishments of the past.

If not, it is not improved. Some search for "statistically preferred".

Yes, Peter. Fortunately many designers and manufacturers think that their objective is creating something to share with others and make their listening experience more enjoyable, not to educate a small group of people ...

 

[microstrip]

If it’s majority rule on “what’s best” then surely the Bose Acoustimass takes the prize!

You seem to forget that Bose Acoustimass is not high-end. Bringing them here only adds noise to the arguments.

Statistics only tell you who owns the most of something…not why. Let’s compare the amount of ownership to the marketing budgets, number of reviews/year, number of reviewers using the product purchased way below what consumers pay etc.

Statistics is just a tool. But it also provides us with basic rules needed to analyze statements such as "what is the best"

Better or best therefore is not strongly correlated to statistical preference…it might have a small correlation to sound but it is likely the other factors mentioned have much stronger correlation.

Your opinion. IMO Better or best in WBF are simply synonymous of statistically preferred either by individuals or groups of audiophiles. The scope of the "better or best" is defined by the sample and surely our experience with groups. The factors you refer surely condition our opinions and its value to others.

 

[bonzo75]

So can we start a what’s best in statistically not preferred Sub forum? Am interested

 

[Al M.]

. Yes, Peter. Fortunately many designers and manufacturers think that their objective is creating something to share with others and make their listening experience more enjoyable, not to educate a small group of people ...

LOL

 

[PeterA]

On the contrary, WBF has never been as vintage-y as it is now. Has there been around 2015, for example, so much talk about old horn systems, SETs, the sonic merits of vintage vs modern designs as there is today? Not by a long shot, it seems to me.

Al, this is not yet another main stream HiEnd versus vintage crowd argument. My point was how WBF has shifted from a discussion forum among hobbyists to a business which supports and defends the interests of the industry. The transformation is not yet complete but is heading rapidly in that direction.

With that shift, there is less inclusion and more division and more arguments. Would the beyond turntable thread be written today? Sure it’s all just opinions, but where are such threads in the WBF of today? I remember quite a few interesting system thread discussions. Those seem to have been replaced by marketing and the promotion of the latest gear. I also don’t remember so many arguments 10 years ago.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Al, this is not yet another main stream HiEnd versus vintage crowd argument. My point was how WBF has shifted from a discussion forum among hobbyists to a business which supports and defends the interests of the industry. The transformation is not yet complete but is heading rapidly in that direction.

With that shift, there is less inclusion and more division and more arguments. Would the beyond turntable thread be written today? Sure it’s all just opinions, but where are such threads in the WBF of today? I remember quite a few interesting system thread discussions. Those seem to have been replaced by marketing and the promotion of the latest gear. I also don’t remember so many arguments 10 years ago.

as WBF gains in relevance to the high end market, it's more important for some players to want to be a part of it. business gets done here to a degree. we are a victim of the attractions of the action here. yet, there are also counter viewpoints and counter agendas too. we are being watched, and maybe some things are done by proxy.

what a wicked web we weave.

people who live in glass houses should throw no stones.

but mostly it's fun and educational too. lots of smart people contributing. the forum is alive and will always evolve if it's to be healthy.

today i have 25-30 local club members visiting my Barn for a listening session, from 1pm to 4:30pm, and am in the middle of preparing. should be a hoot! i do this event every 3 to 4 years as my system evolves. they reach out, i agree.

next Sunday 10-12 people from another club down south are visiting. their 3rd visit now.

the hifi community is valuable to me, and WBF is a part of that.

 

[Carlos269]

as WBF gains in relevance to the high end market, it's more important for some players to want to be a part of it. business gets done here to a degree. we are a victim of the attractions of the action here. yet, there are also counter viewpoints and counter agendas too. we are being watched, and maybe some things are done by proxy.

what a wicked web we weave.

people who live in glass houses should throw no stones.

but mostly it's fun and educational too. lots of smart people contributing. the forum is alive and will always evolve if it's to be healthy.

today i have 25-30 local club members visiting my Barn for a listening session, from 1pm to 4:30pm, and am in the middle of preparing. should be a hoot! i do this event every 3 to 4 years as my system evolves. they reach out, i agree.

next Sunday 10-12 people from another club down south are visiting. their 3rd visit now.

the hifi community is valuable to me, and WBF is a part of that.

Man you must have been miserable during COVID with the lack of attention. I could not fathom having that many people at my house yet alone around my stereo and studio equipment. I guess some people just crave the attention.

To me, my equipment and my music are very personal things.

 

[Al M.]

Man you must have been miserable during COVID with the lack of attention. I could not fathom having that many people at my house yet alone around my stereo and studio equipment. I guess some people just crave the attention.

Weird statement.

To me my equipment and my music are very personal things.

And yet, you crave attention by bragging all the time about your alleged expertise.

 

[Carlos269]

Weird statement.



And yet, you crave attention by bragging all the time about your alleged expertise

Alleged???? I know more than you and that’s a fact.

 

[bonzo75]

Theme wise, this thread is getting to be a summary of various WBF threads.

 

[treitz3]

Man you must have been miserable during COVID with the lack of attention. I could not fathom having that many people at my house yet alone around my stereo and studio equipment. I guess some people just crave the attention.

To me, my equipment and my music are very personal things.

Clearly a perfect example of why the WBF is hampered by being a better place. An uncalled for, personal attack out of nowhere.

It may be personal to you, but for some of us (many of us), we like sharing our journey. Just this morning, I was planning a series of get together sessions from folks who love this hobby. No one is seeking attention. They all do it to learn, share and the comradery of it all.

Your comment is completely out of line, in my not so humble opinion.

Tom

 

[Steve williams]

Clearly a perfect example of why the WBF is hampered by being a better place. An uncalled for, personal attack out of nowhere.

It may be personal to you, but for some of us (many of us), we like sharing our journey. Just this morning, I was planning a series of get together sessions from folks who love this hobby. No one is seeking attention. They all do it to learn, share and the comradery of it all.

Your comment is completely out of line, in my not so humble opinion.

Tom

What we tend to forget in this hobby is all of the friendships and camaraderie that come with it. Many enthusiasts here seem to feel otherwise. I commend MikeL on all of his sessions. He puts it all out there for visitors to enjoy and is the consummate host. IMO Carlos is one of those outliers who thinks his system is just too good for others to hear. Kudos to Mike. If you’ve ever been to one of his sessions they are truly unforgettable. I don’t see him as craving attention as Carlos so mistakingly stated

 

[Carlos269]

Clearly a perfect example of why the WBF is hampered by being a better place. An uncalled for, personal attack out of nowhere.

It may be personal to you, but for some of us (many of us), we like sharing our journey. Just this morning, I was planning a series of get together sessions from folks who love this hobby. No one is seeking attention. They all do it to learn, share and the comradery of it all.

Your comment is completely out of line, in my not so humble opinion.

Tom

I was telling my wife about a guy on the forum having some 30 to 40 guys over to his stereo room to listen to his system and she looked at me and said “what, do you guys go on there and show off? Don’t even think of bringing any strangers into our home!”

Everyone does it differently, that I understand. As they say to each their own, even if it is something that requires counseling.

 

[Carlos269]

What we tend to forget in this hobby is all of the friendships and camaraderie that come with it. Many enthusiasts here seem to feel otherwise. I commend MikeL on all of his sessions. He puts it all out there for visitors to enjoy and is the consummate host. IMO Carlos is one of those outliers who thinks his system is just too good for others to hear. Kudos to Mike. If you’ve ever been to one of his sessions they are truly unforgettable. I don’t see him as craving attention as Carlos so mistakingly stated

I’m entitled to my opinion. And I do have some of the designers and builders of my equipment over from time to time but this is for me and not for anyone else. Sorry if that bothers you. I’m about pushing limits and exploring not about affirmation and acceptance.

 

[Al M.]

Alleged???? I know more than you and that’s a fact.

That's funny.

Now I'm curious. What precisely do you know more about than me? Or do you you know more about everything?

 

[Carlos269]

That's funny.

Now I'm curious. What precisely do you know more about than me? Or do you you know more about everything?

What do you think? You always want to engage with me for some reason. No matter what I post or what thread I post on, there you are. I think that you, like many others on here, enjoy the cock-sparring. I hate to say it but so far the competition just isn’t there to stimulate me into the back and forth. You like coming at me more than I enjoy the intellectual, or lack thereof, exchanges with you. Sorry Al, go nip at someone else’s heels, I have no time for you today.

 

[Steve williams]

I’m entitled to my opinion. And I do have some of the designers and builders of my equipment over from time to time but this is for me and not for anyone else. Sorry if that bothers you. I’m about pushing limits and exploring not about affirmation and acceptance.

You’re right but what you forget is that it’s just an opinion and not dogma as you espouse

 

[Ron Resnick]

What good are different technologies if the end result doesn’t sound better than the best from the past?

This post evidences how you continue to make the mistake of substituting your personal subjective preferences for objective fact. It implies as a matter of objective fact that new technologies and products don't sound better than the best technologies and products from the past. But this reflects nothing more than your personal subjective preference for what you personally consider to be the best technologies and products.

This forum is called what’s best. That doesn’t necessarily mean the current best.

Here, I agree with you completely. Today's products are not necessarily to all audiophiles and for all purposes better than the best of vintage products.

What cartridge sounds better than a Neumann DST? How many current turntables sound better than an EMT 927?

Now you are back to confusing your personal preferences with objective reality. Just because you think the Neumann DST is the best sounding cartridge does not mean other audiophiles think this. And if they prefer some other cartridge it does not make them objectively incorrect. It does in your eyes -- but that's the fallacy of your thinking.

Just out of curiosity why do you think not everybody who visits David purchases a complete Vintage Audio Specialties curated system? Are we all incorrect? Does none of us understand natural sound? Does none of us know what we hear in the concert hall?

How many reports have we read about people saying the old western electric horns or something like the Seimens Bionor is the best speaker they’ve ever heard?

I have no idea how you would begin to put some statistically valid numbers to this numerator and the denominator of this question, so I feel like this post is more rhetorical than anything else.

You tell us -- of all audiophiles alive today who have heard Western Electric horns or Bionors and who think they are the best speakers they have ever heard, what fraction do they represent out of of all of the audiophiles alive today who have heard both Western Electric horns or Bionors and contemporary loudspeakers? What is that fraction?

I think you are simply projecting your personal preferences here, and the preferences of some of your friends.

 

[PeterA]

Why are you repeating yourself ? We received the *message* the first time ! Or are you merely advertising on behalf of

Vintage Audio Specialties.INC.​

Here is why I repeated it:

The argument is the new technologies new materials higher prices current gear leads to better sound. This has nothing to do with vintage audio specialties. The examples I gave I’ve all heard and they are better than new current expensive advanced technology examples I’ve heard. The only exception is the western electric speakers which I have not heard but many people love and the wealthy by them even though they have the ability to buy anything. That is the point. I’m sorry I wasn’t clear enough the first time for you to understand it so I had to repeat it. I also repeated it because no one offered examples of the latest and greatest that sounds better than any of the examples I cited.

 

[Steve williams]

I’m entitled to my opinion. And I do have some of the designers and builders of my equipment over from time to time but this is for me and not for anyone else. Sorry if that bothers you. I’m about pushing limits and exploring not about affirmation and acceptance.

Actually don’t flatter yourself. You don’t bother me. That what the ignore button is for. As to having people over I would go so far as saying that this is. Imo common place for everyone ( except you). I have held weekend events where well over 50 people have attended. I have one coming up in Q4 this year where members from all over the USA and internationally will be attending. You should try it. It’s part and parcel of the hobby. It’s not uncommon for members to bring their wives. It’s called being sociable.