Toward a Theory To Increase Mutual Understanding and Predictability

[Folsom]

David, Have you heard the Magico Ultimate horn speakers? A member hear bought a pair and was trying to find the right amps that would not sound noisy because of the extreme sensitivity, but I have not read anything for a while. I think he was considering low power SS amps because of the low noise floor. I'm curious what you think about that approach.

Are they having trouble with audible noise, or just wanting fidelity?

 

[PeterA]

Are they having trouble with audible noise, or just wanting fidelity?

I don't really know. I just remember the guy talking about wanting very low noise amplifiers for these very efficient horn speakers.

 

[LL21]

No going back for me, I know I reached the pinnacle of panel based systems before switching over. I get to hear some of the best ss amps regularly and they just don't satisfy like a good SET so I'll have to stay with horns and high sensitivity dynamic boxes which there are some excellent ones out there. I'm lucky getting into vintage horns from the start and don't have to compromise with the bass and integration issues as reported by many here.

david

For me the decision starts with the electronics you were limited by your previous Soundlabs, the XLF has freed you up to choose any type of amplification that you want!

david

Yes, Microstrip...an amazingly good choice! Look forward to finding out if you go with great SETs or not. Also, will you add a Sub? I [think?] you have been underwhelmed in the past, but this is one time i am hopeful you will push the blend, because once done right, there (for me and a number of other big Wilson owners) no going back.

 

[bonzo75]

I thought micro loved the XLF when driven by the Dagostino and the constellations? Though he might not get them immediately. Not sure how both are with soundlabs

 

[microstrip]

I thought micro loved the XLF when driven by the Dagostino and the constellations? Though he might not get them immediately. Not sure how both are with soundlabs

I moved to the XLFs to stay away from SS or high power tubes. Currently driving them with the ARC REF150SE (165W per channel, low distortion down to 20 Hz, as some people like... ). I had excellent memories of the old REF150 in the Aida's, except that it was not powerful enough for them in large orchestral music. It has more than power enough for the XLFs in my room. Still in the beginning, some changes in the room large bass traps are needed for box speakers.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, Microstrip...an amazingly good choice! Look forward to finding out if you go with great SETs or not. Also, will you add a Sub? I [think?] you have been underwhelmed in the past, but this is one time i am hopeful you will push the blend, because once done right, there (for me and a number of other big Wilson owners) no going back.

The JL113 and the CR1 are patiently waiting ... I had ordered them for the Soundlab´s, not sure if they will be needed with the XLF's!

 

[LL21]

The JL113 and the CR1 are patiently waiting ... I had ordered them for the Soundlab´s, not sure if they will be needed with the XLF's!

'needed'? perhaps not. Absolutely fantastic when set up right with the XLFs? positively. The number of big Wilson owners with subs is very very significant, and i think for a very good reason. If anyone can set it up well...i suspect it will be you. Look forward to hearing what you think.

 

[morricab]

No going back for me, I know I reached the pinnacle of panel based systems before switching over. I get to hear some of the best ss amps regularly and they just don't satisfy like a good SET so I'll have to stay with horns and high sensitivity dynamic boxes which there are some excellent ones out there. I'm lucky getting into vintage horns from the start and don't have to compromise with the bass and integration issues as reported by many here.

david

Well I was running my panels with SET to very good effect. I could go back to panels perhaps but SS is highly unlikely unless some designer pulls out a miracle.

 

[ddk]

David, Have you heard the Magico Ultimate horn speakers? A member hear bought a pair and was trying to find the right amps that would not sound noisy because of the extreme sensitivity, but I have not read anything for a while. I think he was considering low power SS amps because of the low noise floor. I'm curious what you think about that approach.

I know the Ultimates will sound great with either the Lamm M1.2 or the ML3 but noise can come from anywhere in the system and not just the amps. At this sensitivity level everything matters from the source down to the cables. I don't know who the member is but if he's in the US I can help him out with the noise and integration with the horn & bass amps.

david

 

[ddk]

Well I was running my panels with SET to very good effect. I could go back to panels perhaps but SS is highly unlikely unless some designer pulls out a miracle.

Which panels & SETs? My Divas certainly didn't work with any good SET I know. I realize that there are some with high power claims but they're all very non-linear at higher power.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Which panels & SETs? My Divas certainly didn't work with any good SET I know. I realize that there are some with high power claims but they're all very non-linear at higher power.

david

Apogees don't work well with SETs at all. They produce an output, sure, but that is not at all representative of what they can do

 

[ddk]

Apogees don't work well with SETs at all. They produce an output, sure, but that is not at all representative of what they can do

Agreed but I haven't come across any panels that do any better, that's why I want to know which panels morricab is referring to.
david

 

[morricab]

Both trios and Yamamuras use SS amps.

Avantgardes with SS never sounds very good. I have heard at least a dozen demos with AGs and SS....not good...

 

[bonzo75]

Avantgardes with SS never sounds very good. I have heard at least a dozen demos with AGs and SS....not good...

Trios with basshorns or duos? In the factory?

 

[morricab]

Agreed but I haven't come across any panels that do any better, that's why I want to know which panels morricab is referring to.
david

I had the best success with Acoustats. Specifically, Acoustat Spectra 2200 and Spectra 4400. I also had pretty good success with Acoustat 1+1. We have also had good results with Apogee Caliper Signature and Centaur Major. Also, I have heard excellent results with Relco ribbon hybrids (Mantis and Sinus One). Studio Grands can also be driven no problem with SET as can Grands. Of course I would not put the Studio Grands in a huge room or you won't have enough power probably.

 

[morricab]

Trios with basshorns or duos? In the factory?

Yes, trios with bass horns and also with powered normal subs. Other models as well. At shows and at dealers. I have not been to AGs factory.

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, trios with bass horns and also with powered normal subs. Other models as well. At shows and at dealers. I have not been to AGs factory.

When we compared the Airtight 9w 300b to the SS amps at the factory, the Airtight had better tone, the SS had better bass control. Vitus paired with Trios at Munich sounded good, though at a show, but Mike at Audioshark has been selling some AGs paired with Vitus, and someone down under uses a Dartzeel. Can't comment without hearing those myself

 

[morricab]

When we compared the Airtight 9w 300b to the SS amps at the factory, the Airtight had better tone, the SS had better bass control. Vitus paired with Trios at Munich sounded good, though at a show, but Mike at Audioshark has been selling some AGs paired with Vitus, and someone down under uses a Dartzeel. Can't comment without hearing those myself

I haven't tried the Airtight 300B but perhaps it's output transformer is inadequate for good bass control. My parallel SET JJ-322 has good bass control and for a 300B amp it has very large (probably 10Kg+) Double "C" core output transformers. Most of the problem with tube amp bass control is in the output trannies and not the power output. Of course it will not have vice like grip that a high feedback SS amp will have but it will control just fine. BTW, how could you compare the bass of the amp on a speaker with powered horn subwoofers?

 

[bonzo75]

I haven't tried the Airtight 300B but perhaps it's output transformer is inadequate for good bass control. My parallel SET JJ-322 has good bass control and for a 300B amp it has very large (probably 10Kg+) Double "C" core output transformers. Most of the problem with tube amp bass control is in the output trannies and not the power output. Of course it will not have vice like grip that a high feedback SS amp will have but it will control just fine. BTW, how could you compare the bass of the amp on a speaker with powered horn subwoofers?

More near the midbass. The explosiveness and ease wasn't as much. As you said it might be more the grip than the control, though how do you differentiate between grip and control?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Grip v control?
The Analysis ribbons powered by NATs Transmitters I heard recently
The NATs controlled them, but the sound was anything but grippy
Ie music was ordered and not stressed even at higher volumes, but transients didn't jump and the music didn't excite
Grippy means IMHO the grip of control and being gripped by explosiveness or dynamic and dramatic tonal/speed shifts