Toward a Theory To Increase Mutual Understanding and Predictability

My experience is that you will achieve far greater immersion in the music with "middle class" speakers and top electronics than vice versa. This tells me that it is electronics that are more limiting of realism than speakers. The distortions speakers make are still, more or less, in the realm of sounds we know from nature and that is because resonances of materials, cabinet vibrations etc. are physical materials vibrating...we know this from evolution. Electronic distortions are wholly unnatural and never before experienced by humans until about 90 years ago. This makes them jump out as unnatural and this destroys immersion and suspension of disbelief. It is for the same reason that the room is less important because reflections in a room have been known for 10s of thousands of years, since man started living inside a cave. Our brains know what to expect from room reflections and can tune a lot of this out...unless it is too intense and then you hear this clearly as a drop in intelligibility when speaking in the room. If the room has no issues with speech then it will work ok for hifi.

Obviously, if you have the cash then optimization of both is a good option.

I think your words may be confusing depending on what you believe. Do you think tube electronics are better for immersion? How about old tube electronics? If you agree with Dave, then you PREFER distortion. In fact most stereo's that are very low in distortion are typically found as less engaging, sterile, etc. That's not always the case, but it has been the trend since the 70's. Furthermore it's well known people can endure lots of distortion from electronics and not even know it. So I'd say this is a completely false approach to explain the situation. The situation is very real, but it's not about distortion - well at least not voltage distortion.

Now, if your argument was noise in the electronics plays a big factor it could be part of the equation.

I'm not saying you're wrong to say that electronics are the most unnatural part, I'm just letting you know 'distortion' is the wrong term for describing it. It's very clear, because once you start designing electronics and try to please someone such as yourself, you would have to guess and check since distortion could be vanishing low and you'd still reject it. (vanishing low distortion is pretty normal these days, if that's what the goal is)

I can't speak for him, but I think it has to do with tonal balance, resolution and distortion. We have discussed the topic of goals with each other and agree that we are each after "accuracy" in the sense that we are trying to get a sound which reminds each of us of what we hear at live un amplified music events, ie, the BSO. However, the last time we heard each other's system, he called mine dark sounding, and I thought his system was bright. This was a while ago, and we have not visited each other for a while. Our two systems have also changed a bit since then, so these impressions might be different now. You can search my system page for more information.


The problem here is you're describing accuracy of real life. You're 100% in camp 1 if that's your goal. It also means you have 0 intention of having an accurate system because a system can only be accurate to the source material; and the source material is accurate to the studio & engineers choices, not the instrument/singer. You prefer manipulation to meet a live representation. This is what spawned the whole thread really, and what I've said is probably the biggest issue. You must admit accuracy, distortion, etc, is not your goal in order for the clarification Ron has brought to the table, to work. (this is ironic because you have a fairly low distortion stereo, but whatever, it's about goals)






The only person that I think really is working at goal 3, off the top of my had, is passpig because he has 0 intention of making it sound like real live music, or accurate to the source material. We say we "land" there, but that's as an admittance that we can't make our system perfect. I think it's more appropriate to classify our goal, not our achievements. After all we have little to discuss if there's no goals being approached when we inquire questions on the forum.
 
Hmm. I guess early on LL21 expressed it pretty well. #1 is impossible. Even if I had a good seat at a recorded performance, it is probably not possible that my aural memory would be reliable in comparing the studio product by comparison. I don't believe anybody's aural memory would be, and people who listen to the live music compared to the reproductions often state how different they are. Some isolated solo instruments might come close.

#2 is a collaboration between a customer and an engineer, usually for commercial purposes. The engineers often complain that fidelity takes a back seat to customer whims. Also, you would have to hear the master in the studio in which it was created to get a sense of the ouvre in this environment. This is a fickle standard. Also, studios are full of artifice with compressors, different sounding microphones, de-ssers, etc. The standards are constantly shifting. These are recipes with different herbs and spices.

So, although most audiophiles would like to pretend some sense of elevated consciousness concerning #1 and #2, most are really after #3 whether they dress it up differently or not.

I have long just regarded my stereo system as a "player piano" interpreting varying scrolls created by a dizzying and variant array of mastering results. It is an interpreter of communication however imperfect.

Yes, I want it to be "immersive" and hold my curiosity continuously about what is around the next bend in the performance. Maybe I will be lucky and get an inkling of what the performers intended, which itself is a movable feast.

I have always been offended by the silly "absolute sound" concept. I regard it as a form of pretentious salesmen "taste substitution", or an effort to tell me that somebody else's taste is better than mine so that I should let them decide what I am hearing and buying. In the days when there were just a few rags mediating the high end audio scene, this taste substitution allowed a handful of critics to wield a lot of power over the audio industry, perhaps unfairly. That still happens, but at least we now have more widespread communication options.

Sure, I have my own "catalog" of sounds i.e. what a horn should sound like, what a piano should sound like etc., but I am not vain enough to regard them as "absolute", since I have no basis for doing so.

My own strangest standard of sound quality stems from very early childhood, where I heard one of my father's radios and loved the open, wonderful sound of voices, music and sound effects. I am pretty certain it was an old DHT radio, because that sound has been what I have wanted to replicate my whole life. I have come pretty close, now, I think.
 
When listening to "regular rock and pop", how is it possible to know what the original musical event was?


There is so much studio manipulation that goes into "regular rock and pop" recordings, how can one have any idea what the original musical event sounded like?

Ain't that the truth!

Nothing has a less standardized sound that "regular pop and rock" due to its overwhelming manipulation in the control room.
 
Sure, I have my own "catalog" of sounds i.e. what a horn should sound like, what a piano should sound like etc., but I am not vain enough to regard them as "absolute", since I have no basis for doing so.

I think what makes a difference is how does someone's catalog come about. You yourself say you have an idea of what a horn etc should sound like - while there is no absolute, that idea either came from playing, attending concerts, or one decided that he does not care and he will just listen to music which helps him identify with the clubs he went to in his 20s. So when other people note your listening notes, they want to know what your catalog is, and how it was created, so that they can check if you are in sync with their catalog.
 
It is pretty possible actually. That aside, there are people who listen to MP3 players which may be enjoying it more than us. It is not the topic of the thread whether we enjoy our systems or not. But whether we can rally around certain truths. Yours better be absolutely wrong. The notion that no two audiophiles can agree on what is accurate representation of music is the most damning thing anyone can say about our incompetence in that regard.

Fortunately research proves your position quite wrong. When knowledge of what is being heard is taken away, we are remarkably close in judging accuracy of sounds, thank you very much.

And I'm sure that research proves that I am quite wrong about a lot of things, but you are misstating my position.
 
I think what makes a difference is how does someone's catalog come about. You yourself say you have an idea of what a horn etc should sound like - while there is no absolute, that idea either came from playing, attending concerts, or one decided that he does not care and he will just listen to music which helps him identify with the clubs he went to in his 20s. So when other people note your listening notes, they want to know what your catalog is, and how it was created, so that they can check if you are in sync with their catalog.

I would assume that I am always out of sync with everybody else's catalog. Different lives, different musical experiences, different catalogs.

When I had a performing musician hear my system recently, I thought he would comment about how fake the sounds and tones were. His only comment was he thought the balance was different from right to left on one of his own FLAC files. Otherwise, he loved the system and had no other criticism or comment.

I was impressed that he was impressed, and my flabby standard is targeted reasonably well.
 
I would assume that I am always out of sync with everybody else's catalog. Different lives, different musical experiences, different catalogs.

When I had a performing musician hear my system recently, I thought he would comment about how fake the sounds and tones were. His only comment was he thought the balance was different from right to left on one of his own FLAC files. Otherwise, he loved the system and had no other criticism or comment.

I was impressed that he was impressed, and my flabby standard is targeted reasonably well.

If you consider that the performing musician's reference was live and score it at 100 on the scale, and put a certain score on your system, he would have no way of knowing if it was the highest score an audiophile system could achieve, or the lowest - for that you need a reference of that 100, as well as be a gear head who can plot from 20 to 80 w.r.t that 100. While different audiophiles with experience of that 100 might not put an exact same score on each gear, the gear would end up in clusters - you could find some between 20 - 40 and some between 60 - 80. Since both of a us have a catalog of how a horn and piano would sound like, we both put a high value on the Apogees and the Analysis.
 
The problem here is you're describing accuracy of real life. You're 100% in camp 1 if that's your goal. It also means you have 0 intention of having an accurate system because a system can only be accurate to the source material; and the source material is accurate to the studio & engineers choices, not the instrument/singer. You prefer manipulation to meet a live representation. This is what spawned the whole thread really, and what I've said is probably the biggest issue. You must admit accuracy, distortion, etc, is not your goal in order for the clarification Ron has brought to the table, to work. (this is ironic because you have a fairly low distortion stereo, but whatever, it's about goals)






The only person that I think really is working at goal 3, off the top of my had, is passpig because he has 0 intention of making it sound like real live music, or accurate to the source material. We say we "land" there, but that's as an admittance that we can't make our system perfect. I think it's more appropriate to classify our goal, not our achievements. After all we have little to discuss if there's no goals being approached when we inquire questions on the forum.

Thank you Folsom. I see your point. Perhaps my friend and I should not have been referring to "accuracy" as a goal for our systems. We do however try to manipulate our systems so that they remind us of the sound of the live event, that is, un-amplified, live music. It helps to have good recordings. I also try to have a low distortion stereo, and am currently auditioning a new pre amp to move the system further in that direction. Thank you for your post.
 
Hmm. I guess early on LL21 expressed it pretty well. #1 is impossible. Even if I had a good seat at a recorded performance, it is probably not possible that my aural memory would be reliable in comparing the studio product by comparison. I don't believe anybody's aural memory would be, and people who listen to the live music compared to the reproductions often state how different they are. Some isolated solo instruments might come close.

#2 is a collaboration between a customer and an engineer, usually for commercial purposes. The engineers often complain that fidelity takes a back seat to customer whims. Also, you would have to hear the master in the studio in which it was created to get a sense of the ouvre in this environment. This is a fickle standard. Also, studios are full of artifice with compressors, different sounding microphones, de-ssers, etc. The standards are constantly shifting. These are recipes with different herbs and spices.

That's not really true, necessarily. It would only be so if your goal was to have a stereo that reproduced the exact sound the engineer heard. In that case you'd just buy Yamaha NS10's and whatever popular amp, and you'd be doing pretty good for replicating studios... and for slightly better albums use some JBL's.

Maybe I got this wrong, but so long as #2 means that you're accurate to the source material (call it "master tapes" if you want) you're goal is being met. This is fairly easy. Compare the signal from the source (on something that isn't questionable like many audiophile sources) to the output of your amplifier, and your speakers. The closer it is, the closer you are to the goal. Ironically that's not the hardest thing to achieve, so sadly I believe there's more to it. Well I'm getting a step ahead, at the amplifier outputs that's not a surprise, at the speaker output is different since it's the biggest sound changer of them all. This likely leads down the road towards DSP/room treatment etc...

Can you know by ear? Well, sorta, it's not that hard to start distinguishing characteristics that are studio and mastering specific. Generally you have to go through a few albums to get a sense of what's the stereo, and what's the source (if the stereo can show you).

Consider that in the engineers perspective they can, and often do, use shitty amplifiers and speakers. But they typically (and hopefully) use high quality machinery to manipulate the sound until they get what they want. A lot of things we listen to are coincidental to them, as they came along with adjustments for something we may not be paying attention to, but was evident for them. But the overall biggest thing to understand is they don't record the played back version from their speakers and pass it onto us! So many audiophile systems are more accurate to the source than what you'd hear in many studio's monitors. And you can't be accurate to the experience if you were sitting in a booth where the player was, because that negates all of the work the mixer and masterer does.
 
Thank you Folsom. I see your point. Perhaps my friend and I should not have been referring to "accuracy" as a goal for our systems. We do however try to manipulate our systems so that they remind us of the sound of the live event, that is, un-amplified, live music. It helps to have good recordings. I also try to have a low distortion stereo, and am currently auditioning a new pre amp to move the system further in that direction. Thank you for your post.

Thank you for seeing the difference. I think your goal is as noble as any other goal. And I think many audiophiles feel just like you do.

You couldn't be more right about the recording, if it sounds raw and live to begin with much of the work is already done to meet that goal. In that respect you're lucky you like jazz!
 
That's not really true, necessarily. It would only be so if your goal was to have a stereo that reproduced the exact sound the engineer heard. In that case you'd just buy Yamaha NS10's and whatever popular amp, and you'd be doing pretty good for replicating studios... and for slightly better albums use some JBL's.

Maybe I got this wrong, but so long as #2 means that you're accurate to the source material (call it "master tapes" if you want) you're goal is being met. This is fairly easy. Compare the signal from the source (on something that isn't questionable like many audiophile sources) to the output of your amplifier, and your speakers. The closer it is, the closer you are to the goal. Ironically that's not the hardest thing to achieve, so sadly I believe there's more to it. Well I'm getting a step ahead, at the amplifier outputs that's not a surprise, at the speaker output is different since it's the biggest sound changer of them all. This likely leads down the road towards DSP/room treatment etc...

Can you know by ear? Well, sorta, it's not that hard to start distinguishing characteristics that are studio and mastering specific. Generally you have to go through a few albums to get a sense of what's the stereo, and what's the source (if the stereo can show you).

Consider that in the engineers perspective they can, and often do, use shitty amplifiers and speakers. But they typically (and hopefully) use high quality machinery to manipulate the sound until they get what they want. A lot of things we listen to are coincidental to them, as they came along with adjustments for something we may not be paying attention to, but was evident for them. But the overall biggest thing to understand is they don't record the played back version from their speakers and pass it onto us! So many audiophile systems are more accurate to the source than what you'd hear in many studio's monitors. And you can't be accurate to the experience if you were sitting in a booth where the player was, because that negates all of the work the mixer and masterer does.

I suppose you could electronically do these comparisons comparing output signals with source mastering signals. However, I think the vast majority of audiophiles "re-equalize" to produce something with their rooms and systems that reminds THEM of their catalogue of sounds. That goes back to #3, that most audiophile systems are geared to the audiophile and not necessarily the master tape flat response. The "master" becomes a point of departure to make the system sound convincing.

I am not sure that I have heard a system whose goal is to present a flat measured rendition of a master tape. It would be interesting to hear, but my prejudice is it might not sound that great in a lot of systems.
 
Ron Resnick said:
First, I believe there are three primary alternative objectives of high-end audio:

1) recreate the sound of an original musical event,

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape, and

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile.

I’ve thought a lot about this. I think it’s a really interesting question, and Ron, I’m glad you asked it.

My thoughts so far are:

#1 is impossible. To “recreate the sound” in the literal sense would mean exactly that - you drag the musicians and their instruments into your living room and play it again (though of course, it would diverge from the original event not only in sound, but in performance).

The sound of the original event only lasts as long as the event itself and only able to be perceived by those present. If someone was there and recorded the sound of the original event they did so selectively according to preference - not limited to selection of mic type, polar pattern, placement, spacing (A/B, X/Y, ORTF, Blumlein, M/S), mic pre, DAC, EQ, etc. Once it hits a mic diaphragm, it’s changed from sound into electricity, and only able to be turned back into sound after having been ‘manipulated’ via the choice of the above process relative to human preference.

The recording is not so much the original event, as it is the event according to the preferences of the recording mechanism. Therefore, it’s no longer the original event nor a recreation, it’s a reinterpretation of an original event, with the producer/engineer/mastering engineer the re-interpreters. In this sense, they too become co-creators alongside the musicians. It is no longer “the” sound, it is “a” sound, judged relative to preference.

#2 is impossible. That would only be possible if one was to accept the process of playback introduced no electro-acoustical distortions of any kind. In theory, of course, we can argue that should the reproduction chain be sufficiently able to reduce its distortions down to below an audible threshold, “exact” reproduction is possible. However, in the real world, playing music (the “master tape/format”) - not steady state signals - the level of distortion is magnified in a non-linear and asymmetrical manner significantly (especially at real-world levels), as anyone who has compared the original musical waveform of the medium with the same musical waveform at the speaker/room interface (the listening position) can attest to.

#3 is therefore - given #1 and #2 are impossible - by default, the only option left.

Or is it?

It’s certainly possible to create a sound that’s subjectively pleasing. But is that what we’re trying to do? And is that enough?

For many of us, perhaps not.

cjfrbw said:
I have long just regarded my stereo system as a "player piano" interpreting varying scrolls created by a dizzying and variant array of mastering results. It is an interpreter of communication however imperfect.

bonzo75 said:
I think what makes a difference is how does someone's catalog come about

I think these are both helpful insights, and in regard to cjfrbw’s comment, one I’ve shared before, though I doubt I was the first. As I’ve argued before, any electro-mechanical device whose primary purpose is the playback of a time-based art form that cannot be stable in time and creates an asymmetrical and non-linear relationship between frequency and dynamics when playing back music (not steady state signals) at real-world levels is not and cannot be considered “accurate” to anything. It will always be reinterpreting the signal in its own way. In a similar way to how a conductor sets the overall tempo and content, the musicians modulate their instruments, and the instruments themselves produce sound, so too does the interdependent mechanism of source, amplifier and speaker (though as an analogy, it is flawed, and provided simply for illustrative purposes) - i.e., both the orchestra and the audio reproduction mechanism are constantly (re)interpreting the music.

Bonzo’s point is that despite the fact our audio mechanisms are not producing “reality” (primary objective # 1), our perception is still looking for cues that our brain can easily match to our pre-existing library of references of what music sounds like when not reproduced. This neurobiological process is hardwired not just toward recognition - but to determine meaning (it actively sorts sound from music)*.

Any musician who’s faced with a piece of music will try and not just play the notes correctly (at the right time, with the right amplitude, at the right pitch), they will attempt to impart meaning to those notes (hence the degree of variance a conductor or soloist will bring to the same piece of music). That meaning - the intention of the human being to create art anew - is, I believe, why the art form socio-culturally accepted as music has come to play such an enormous part in our history as a species, and why we - a tiny, tiny subset of the larger population - are willing to spend so much of our time, effort, energy (and money) on re-interpreting it in our homes. What’s more, it’s unfortunately that meaning that many systems suspend in order to sound one way or another.

For me, and possibly for many of us here, we accept that not only are #1 and #2 impossible, but that we are looking for reinterpreters that most closely match our collective and historical experience of music - our perception of what is music. “Subjectively pleasing” is, for me, not enough. “Pleasant” sound, “visceral” sound, ”beautiful” sound, “accurate” sound - none of those interest me. The research (nascent though it is) points to the brain’s need to separate sound and music into neurobiologically distinct categories. My perception of music has been and is continually being formed by my exposure to it in both prerecorded and live form. Without wanting to be a dick (too late!), a system for me - charged with the responsibility of reinterpreting music that continues to have incredible personal significance for me on a daily basis - must reinterpret the music in a way that is closest to my perception of what makes music meaningful based on my historical experience of listening to, creating/playing and experiencing music in all its forms, despite the fact that the sound of that music will never fully be able to come close to the real thing.


*See Daniel J. Levitin & Scott T. Grafton: “Measuring the representational space of music with fMRI: a case study with Sting”; Edward F. Chang, Nima Mesgarani, Keith Johnson, & Connie Cheung: “Phonetic Feature Encoding in Human Superior Temporal Gyrus”; Sam Norman-Haignere, Nancy G. Kanwisher, John H. McDermott: “Distinct Cortical Pathways for Music and Speech Revealed by Hypothesis-Free Voxel Decomposition”.
 
I think your words may be confusing depending on what you believe. Do you think tube electronics are better for immersion? How about old tube electronics? If you agree with Dave, then you PREFER distortion. In fact most stereo's that are very low in distortion are typically found as less engaging, sterile, etc. That's not always the case, but it has been the trend since the 70's. Furthermore it's well known people can endure lots of distortion from electronics and not even know it. So I'd say this is a completely false approach to explain the situation. The situation is very real, but it's not about distortion - well at least not voltage distortion.

Now, if your argument was noise in the electronics plays a big factor it could be part of the equation.

I'm not saying you're wrong to say that electronics are the most unnatural part, I'm just letting you know 'distortion' is the wrong term for describing it. It's very clear, because once you start designing electronics and try to please someone such as yourself, you would have to guess and check since distortion could be vanishing low and you'd still reject it. (vanishing low distortion is pretty normal these days, if that's what the goal is)




The problem here is you're describing accuracy of real life. You're 100% in camp 1 if that's your goal. It also means you have 0 intention of having an accurate system because a system can only be accurate to the source material; and the source material is accurate to the studio & engineers choices, not the instrument/singer. You prefer manipulation to meet a live representation. This is what spawned the whole thread really, and what I've said is probably the biggest issue. You must admit accuracy, distortion, etc, is not your goal in order for the clarification Ron has brought to the table, to work. (this is ironic because you have a fairly low distortion stereo, but whatever, it's about goals)






The only person that I think really is working at goal 3, off the top of my had, is passpig because he has 0 intention of making it sound like real live music, or accurate to the source material. We say we "land" there, but that's as an admittance that we can't make our system perfect. I think it's more appropriate to classify our goal, not our achievements. After all we have little to discuss if there's no goals being approached when we inquire questions on the forum.


I think you misunderstand the nature of the audibilty of distortion and its impact on the sound. i prefer distortion that my brain knows how to ignore. Given that no amplifier is truly distortion free, then I prefer that distortion that hides in the blind spots of our perception. It just so happens that well designed SET is the best at that hiding trick. I have never heard a truly old SET or even truly old push/pull amp (like old WE designs), so I cannot comment on their sonic qualities. However, if they were designed with inadequate iron and passive parts that are poorly matched then it is likely that they generate far more distortion than a modern SET.

Most modern, low distortion designs sound sterile and less engaging because of design choices that have led to the generation of distortion patterns that are not found in nature and are therefore almost impossible to mask. High order harmonics are very dissonant to the human ear and even very low levels can be damaging to the sound quality...particularly when not following a natural, monotonic, decay pattern. Human hearing is all about pattern recognition and an unexpected pattern sticks out like a sore thumb. If you have equal intensity even and odd harmonics or only odd harmonics, there is nothing in nature that makes such a pattern. It becomes audible as a sterile, non-engaging sound at low levels and actively annoying at higher levels.

People can "endure", as you put it, up to a few % if the harmonics are masked by the ear/brain because they follow the pattern of self-generated ear harmonics. What they cannot endure is low amounts of unmasked distortion. It is like looking at a cheap 4K LED TV. The resolution and sharpness are otherworldly but the overall effect is far from natural to what we see everyday. No one who sees this can debate it and it is all from digital distortions that are wholly unique to our evolutionary history. THerefore, they never look natural. When I was shopping for a TV a couple of years ago, I was repulsed by a huge number of TVs for just this reason.

Noise of course can play a big role in degrading sound quality...particularly if the noise is intermodulated with the signal. You can see this in quite a few FFTs for different amps as sidebands around each harmonic. Can't be helpful to the sound quality.

What is worse, a lot of distortion that your brain is able to ignore or a tiny bit of distortion that is easy to hear? I can tell you which one will sound more natural to most people...

I only care about accuracy from a psychoacoutical POV. Until someone invents a truly linear amplification device, trying to remove distortion to inaudibility seems to be a fools errand. Fitting the distortion to match a psychoacoustic model gives you a good chance of getting something close to 1) but at the same time it might still give you a closer approach to 2) as well. Small amounts of obnoxious distortion will sonically pull you away from what the master tape SHOULD sound like. Masked distortion is inaudible and will SOUND pure.

If you mean accuracy from a purely technical definition that means you have minimized overall distortions (including noise) regardless of the psychoacoustic costs then I would agree with you that 2) is not my goal. However, I think I am not alone in being someone who does not listen to oscilloscopes. They are useful and FFT plots are useful only so far as they help us correlate measurements with what we hear. You are wrong to think that 2) exists in a scientific vacuum where only numbers matter.
 
morricab, you must understand what you're saying, when applied to electronics, is mostly gibberish. It's not because it's invalid, it's because it's not describing it well enough. Your idea of ignoring/masking distortion makes little sense. What you're probably describing if often the differences in recording and engineering choices, and haven't realized it.

SET's of the past generated more distortion from the tubes, and the resistors they used. Half to 90% of it was just from how the tubes ran, which are the same tubes used today. Designers today may or may not chose to scale down the distortion that tubes are inclined towards. Tubes are however very linear, more so than solid state tends to be, which may give them qualities you're describing.

If you and I were to sit in front of a stereo and play music, I bet we could pick similar parts of tracks out that were of interest. But you'd describe something very different from what I would about it. The difference is I could walk up to it, do some soldering changes, and change the aspect we're talking about by knowing what causes it.

You touched on noise, and that's a huge problem. But even a low noise system doesn't magically turn the sound into what people may want.
 
I do remember many years ago having a discussion with a mastering engineer on audio asylum. His opinion was #2, as you might expect from his profession.

I poked him a little bit and he admitted that #2 bore no resemblance to #1 i.e. he just considered the recordings of the music to be a palette from which he conducted further manipulations to generate his own mastered product. He regarded the master tape to be the actual art work, even superior to the performance, irregardless of what the original musicians may have intended in their performances.

He believed that his master was sacrosanct, and the goal of an audio system should be to present the master as close to the original as possible.

I asked him if this wasn't a bit solipsistic, since he freely admitted using a free hand manipulating the original performance, and that perhaps audiophile deployments might very well require some kind of latitude to re-interpret the result, as he had done.

He got pretty miffed by the suggestion.
 
...so long as #2 means that you're accurate to the source material (call it "master tapes" if you want) you're goal is being met. This is fairly easy. Compare the signal from the source (on something that isn't questionable like many audiophile sources) to the output of your amplifier, and your speakers. The closer it is, the closer you are to the goal. Ironically that's not the hardest thing to achieve, so sadly I believe there's more to it. Well I'm getting a step ahead, at the amplifier outputs that's not a surprise, at the speaker output is different since it's the biggest sound changer of them all. This likely leads down the road towards DSP/room treatment etc...

Can you know by ear? Well, sorta, it's not that hard to start distinguishing characteristics that are studio and mastering specific. Generally you have to go through a few albums to get a sense of what's the stereo, and what's the source (if the stereo can show you)...

As a complete non-techie i think i see where you are going with this. Go back as far as one can in the chain and measure that signal to the outgoing signal on the other end. Makes sense...i guess the key is for us non-techies:
- what are all the things that we should measure to ensure that fidelity? do we measure all the various distortions (2nd, 3rd, 4th)? again, non-techie
- more importantly, how do we prioritize these various measurements so we know which ones are the most effective in getting true fidelity
- And then there is how human physiology and human hearing works...and how we link the distortions to human hearing's own priorities? how do we prioritize which distortions to focus on as more meaningful to reduce for a human ear (vs a recording machine)?

i think many of us do this 'by ear' because we have no scientific knowledge of measurements, nor the equipment, nor the knowledge of human physiology to understand if/how a human hears differently than a microphone/computer.

And then of course, 'by ear' means...we try to get our system playback to sound more like...guess what?...the only 'so called reference' we have...which is 'does it sound like a piano'...in the sincerest hopes that mastering engineers for BIS, Channel Classics, Hyperion have done a good job on capturing solo piano...so that if we can find a way to calibrate our system to make THOSE recordings sound like something approaching what our ear feels is 'the real thing' then we are as close as we can come to 'fidelity' to the source.

In fact, i use those 'reference recordings' over and over again to see if i can get them all to seem like real instruments really on nothing more than: 1) i have no other means to calibrate the system and b) frankly, i find that the more i do this...the more realistic the other albums seem to be anyway.

And with deep house electronics...i just find that as long as i hear more detail, whatever more qualitative qualities the music takes, i 'assume' that with the calibration i have done on 'real instruments' recorded by 'real labels' and 'real engineers'...i assume that this is as close to how the deep house electronics 'should sound.'

I am going take a big [good natured] leap and put words in the mouths of those who said they aspire to Group 1 (original event)...and say that i am going to guess a good portion of them are actually using this 'by ear' approach to say, "i am going to assume the engineer did his part really well" and then go ahead of try to get the system to bring live instruments into my room...and if i succeed on this series of 'reference albums' [which are essentially acting as my system calibration]...then i will trust that the rest of my albums will just have to follow that calibration as 'getting the most out of them'.
 
1) recreate the sound of an original musical event,

2) reproduce exactly what is on the master tape, and

3) create a sound subjectively pleasing to the audiophile.​



IMO 3 is where many audiophiles begin their journey and it's also what will remain as the cornerstone of any high end system for most, to do otherwise is counterintuitive. I don't see a difference between 1&2, the quality of the master in whatever form it is will determine how much of 1 is possible or not. I've sat in enough recordings to know that the master can be truthful to the original event and the commercial copy can have enough information to recreate aspects of the original event with the right system but there's a journey before you get there.

The steps as I've experienced them,

- Full musical immersion without system consideration.
- Interest in systems without clear goals just wanting better.
- Gear lust over musical immersion.
- Change o rama, tweak o rama.
- Find musical satisfaction and immersion again.
- Find system & musical immersion to suspend reality for naturalness
- Moving suspension of reality closer to #1

but YMMV.

david
 
(...) I am not sure that I have heard a system whose goal is to present a flat measured rendition of a master tape. It would be interesting to hear, but my prejudice is it might not sound that great in a lot of systems.

I think that " flat measured rendition of a master tape " was written in a figurative sense but can be literally interpreted as a good recording played through any well measuring electronics according to the classical specifications with any speaker that fulfills the F. Toole described whole set of parameters, expecting that the sound engineer balanced the recording to such system. Theoretically it is the way to break the famous "circle of confusion."

Surely this definition misses that nowadays electronics measuring excellently sound very different, as well as speakers. IMHO 2. only pretends to excludes some equipments based in old statistical dogmas, not to affirm a single user preference.

Some people (including me, surely) consider that this choice is reductionist - it sacrifices some of the best intrinsic capabilities of stereo in order to achieve a more reliable and consistent solution, although less ambitious. YMMV.

BYW, I still own an all Quad system (CD, pre, amplifier and ESL63 speakers). IMHO in some sense it matches 2).
 
Can't agree, Folsom - morricab is expressing an opinion that I agree with.

It all boils down to psychoacoustics & the mechanisms by which auditory processing works.
Room reflections are distortions in so far as they are not part of the original recorded sound but we are accommodated to them from our experience of how acoustic spaces behave & our auditory processing is able to analyse & separate these reflection distortions into a separate acoustic stream. We are therefore able to focus on other aspects of the soundstream & virtually ignore room reflections. Exactly the same as we do when listening to & following a single conversation in a room full of babbling voices - we are analysing the nerve pulse signals arising from ALL the vibrations hitting the eardrum & grouping a certain subset of vibrations into the stream that represents the conversation we are trying to follow. By focussing on this conversation we are consciously oblivious to the babble in the room unless it intrudes our consciousness & it does sometimes. But even though we are not conscious of this babble it is affecting our listening - we are straining more than normal & given a chance we will try to avoid the additional energy necessary to do this.

But what happens if we eliminate these room reflections altogether by listening in an anechoic chamber? The most often expressed opinion is that it sounds weird & unnatural i.e our auditory processing recognises this as a sound not encountered in nature. Again people do not want to stay in this environment for too long.

The lesson seems to be that our auditory processing system is comfortable with a level of distortion that we have been exposed to in our contact with the world of sound & we know we are comfortable with.

Again all instruments have amplitude & frequency modulations in their sound envelopes as a result of the non-linear aspects of these instruments - it's what gives them their timbre. I believe it's the accurate reproduction of these fine FM & AM signals (low level signal linearity) that is at the heart of realism & immersion. These low level signals have to be preserved in their journey through the audio electronics on the way to the speaker. it's what can often differentiate one instrument among a number of the same between one type of Unnaturally high levels or distortion that

This is exactly what morricab is saying & which I agree with - it's our auditory processing mechanisms that have to be satisfied if we want believability & envelopment (immersion) from our audio playback.

Accuracy is a wasteful goal, IMO - firstly we have failed many times in the past with measures of accuracy in audio & I have no doubt we are currently still off the mark. Secondly, input to output is not 100% accurate - the judgement of 'accuracy' is premised on the errors measured being below audibility so we are already talking about a qualified accuracy. Now there are a lot of holes in this qualification - are the measured errors fully characterising the playback system in all its performance, including it's behaviour with a dynamic, non-repeating, chaotic signal such as music? Can this be truthfully guaranteed?

At this juncture, in audio playback development, we have peeled off enough layers of the onion that we are now at a crossroads - we know that the illusion of realism & immersion/envelopment are possible - a lot of us (I won't say all) have heard it or heard hints of it - do we endeavour to achieve this in a stable way by improving 'accuracy' even though it is considered by many to be 'perceptually accurate', anyway? There's a disconnect here, I believe.

As morricab eloquently says - much better to ignore those distortions that are in the blind spot of our perception & expend our energy on those aspects that have more significance (even though they may well be considered
 
As a complete non-techie i think i see where you are going with this. Go back as far as one can in the chain and measure that signal to the outgoing signal on the other end. Makes sense...i guess the key is for us non-techies:
- what are all the things that we should measure to ensure that fidelity? do we measure all the various distortions (2nd, 3rd, 4th)? again, non-techie
- more importantly, how do we prioritize these various measurements so we know which ones are the most effective in getting true fidelity
- And then there is how human physiology and human hearing works...and how we link the distortions to human hearing's own priorities? how do we prioritize which distortions to focus on as more meaningful to reduce for a human ear (vs a recording machine)?

i think many of us do this 'by ear' because we have no scientific knowledge of measurements, nor the equipment, nor the knowledge of human physiology to understand if/how a human hears differently than a microphone/computer.

And then of course, 'by ear' means...we try to get our system playback to sound more like...guess what?...the only 'so called reference' we have...which is 'does it sound like a piano'...in the sincerest hopes that mastering engineers for BIS, Channel Classics, Hyperion have done a good job on capturing solo piano...so that if we can find a way to calibrate our system to make THOSE recordings sound like something approaching what our ear feels is 'the real thing' then we are as close as we can come to 'fidelity' to the source.

In fact, i use those 'reference recordings' over and over again to see if i can get them all to seem like real instruments really on nothing more than: 1) i have no other means to calibrate the system and b) frankly, i find that the more i do this...the more realistic the other albums seem to be anyway.

And with deep house electronics...i just find that as long as i hear more detail, whatever more qualitative qualities the music takes, i 'assume' that with the calibration i have done on 'real instruments' recorded by 'real labels' and 'real engineers'...i assume that this is as close to how the deep house electronics 'should sound.'

I am going take a big [good natured] leap and put words in the mouths of those who said they aspire to Group 1 (original event)...and say that i am going to guess a good portion of them are actually using this 'by ear' approach to say, "i am going to assume the engineer did his part really well" and then go ahead of try to get the system to bring live instruments into my room...and if i succeed on this series of 'reference albums' [which are essentially acting as my system calibration]...then i will trust that the rest of my albums will just have to follow that calibration as 'getting the most out of them'.

I believe you took one extra leap. While it's not easy or reasonable for all of us to be measuring everything, the topic isn't actually about how we achieve the steps per se.

What's important to Ron, and I believe is important, is how we're talking about these aspects. Now - not that I want to provoke morricab more but - as an example if you describe everything as a "distortion" or "linear and not-linear" it's not very useful to people with different goals because it's only in your frame of reference as towards what you think those attributes are. Just like how for Peter, his goal is to accurately represent a live performance but that can easily be shortened to accurate which has different meanings for someone with a #2 outlook. (Aka the mastering engineer that thinks his work is art)

What do I suggest people do? Listen to equipment for what they like. But I believe Ron was right to bring up the topic. It's on topic with his general postilation that we should use less hyperbole, and talk about what we're hearing. It'll help everyone describe what is going on much better so that our text format of sharing information on the forum will be more pertinent to understanding; which helps a lot when people are looking for equipment for example.

I'm starting to believe this may have to evolve into an interesting scenario, like having a group gathering where we discuss things as we listen and gain knowledge on what is what. And after that "clinic" the people whom attended could help others. The event may have to last for days, and would require an assortment of gear that were picked for very specific reasons. Well, it sounds nice in my head to propose something of this nature, as far as happening that may not be as easy. At least it'd be easier than our on going discussion here.
 

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