Videos of Acoustically-Coupled Audio Recordings

[hopkins]

Can't agree, subtle detail in the recording can trigger an emotional response, if a system doesn't reproduce these details (is not hi fi) you won't get the intended (by the artist) emotional response. The opening piano of this track is a good test for this (analogue versions):
View attachment 120245

In the case of that speaker (Altec), the detail is not the issue - quite the opposite - it is the frequency range that is limited.

Regardless, do you think that the billions of people who enjoy music on a daily basis with lo-fi equipment are not getting "emotional responses"?

As "audiophiles", we are cursed - we have a hard time simply listening to music without focusing our attention on the system. That is why the best systems are often described as the ones which "disappear"! What are the ingredients for that to happen? I am not sure there is a good answer to that question, or one that everyone will agree to.

 

[PeterA]

As "audiophiles", we are cursed - we have a hard time simply listening to music without focusing our attention on the system. That is why the best systems are often described as the ones which "disappear"! What are the ingredients for that to happen? I am not sure there is a good answer to that question, or one that everyone will agree to.

Systems disappear when nothing about their presentation calls attention to itself and the music sounds natural allowing the listener to lose himself in the experience.

 

[hopkins]

Systems disappear when nothing about their presentation calls attention to itself and the music sounds natural allowing the listener to lose himself in the experience.

I've read your thread. Here's a more universal statement:

"Systems disappear when nothing about their presentation calls attention to itself and the music sounds natural allowing the listener to lose himself in the experience."

 

[PeterA]

I've read your thread. Here's a more universal statement:

"Systems disappear when nothing about their presentation calls attention to itself and the music sounds natural allowing the listener to lose himself in the experience."

So are you still not sure there’s a good answer to your question? It seemed pretty easy to answer to me.

 

[Ron Resnick]

That is why the best systems are often described as the ones which "disappear"!

Why do you think some audiophiles hear certain systems as "disappearing" but not other systems as "disappearing"?

What are the ingredients for that to happen?

I call these ingredients "sonic cues." Each of us has a different (or some of us might have the exact same) set of sonic cues which reminds us of the sound of live music and allows a particular system to disappear for us.

I am not sure there is a good answer to that question, or one that everyone will agree to.

Certain people may have the same set of sonic cues, but, more likely, different people will have different combinations of sonic cues which allow, for them, suspension of disbelief.

 

[bonzo75]

Why do you think some audiophiles hear certain systems as "disappearing" but not other systems is "disappearing"?

Too many individual attributes sticking out in an imbalanced way to the rest coz system to not disappear. For example too much bass not integrated with upper half or too big size compared to room. Also causing same stage on all LPs. Same spiky nature across tracks. These are all examples of system sticking out somewhere.

When everything is in balance, there is a coherence. Not just across drivers, but with the room, stage, etc. The sound should come as one. When you watch a TV, just like you see a picture in real life you see one screen. Imagine if you had 5 screens, one showing one actor, one showing the landscape, etc, another showing the car chasing, etc. Many systems sound like TVs with a non contiguous image appearing sporadicallyin parts at different points in the room.

Now - why do some attributes hear it and some don't - because some are inexperienced, they are willing to go with what they have heard at a price point instead of really search. As I said, if as a non-audiophile heard only one system, you would buy it to listen to something and suspend disbelief with that system. That's why many of us before becoming audiophiles would probably have had Bose or TV speakers. We used that to listen to music. Does that mean we carried those cues from the concert hall? No. We just did not know any better. And just because someone upgrades from Bose to big fat speakers costing 400k, it does not mean he knows any better. He was clueless before, and now he is equally clues less, just 400k short.

 

[PeterA]

Why do you think some audiophiles hear certain systems as "disappearing" but not other systems is "disappearing"?


I call these ingredients "sonic cues." Each of us has a different (or some of us might have the exact same) set of sonic cues which reminds us of the sound of live music and allows a particular system to disappear for us.

Certain people may have the same set of sonic cues, but, more likely, different people will have different combinations of sonic cues which allow, for them, suspension of disbelief.

Kedar is correct that the same person might have different sets of sonic cues each of which achieves for that person the same level of suspension of disbelief from different systems. But this is just another way of saying that that person's various system preferences are on the same indifference curve.

Ron, I am confused about which thread I am reading. How many "sonic cues" do you think people generally have? Can you list your personal "sonic cues"?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Can you list your personal "sonic cues"?

I did some of that for Elliot in answering his question on the other thread.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I am confused about which thread I am reading.

Sorry for repeating the point here. I did it only because Hopkins' question about ingredients dovetails with the sonic cues theory.

How many "sonic cues" do you think people generally have?

I have no information on this question. It will be individual to each audiophile.

 

[hopkins]

I did it only because Hopkins' question about ingredients dovetails with the sonic cues theory.

I am getting confused - can you explain that point ?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am getting confused - can you explain that point ?

You asked: "What are the ingredients for that to happen?"

I think your "ingredients" are conceptually similar to my "sonic cues."

 

[PeterA]

Too many individual attributes sticking out in an imbalanced way to the rest coz system to not disappear. For example too much bass not integrated with upper half or too big size compared to room. Also causing same stage on all LPs. Same spiky nature across tracks. These are all examples of system sticking out somewhere.

When everything is in balance, there is a coherence. Not just across drivers, but with the room, stage, etc. The sound should come as one. When you watch a TV, just like you see a picture in real life you see one screen. Imagine if you had 5 screens, one showing one actor, one showing the landscape, etc, another showing the car chasing, etc. Many systems sound like TVs with a non contiguous image appearing sporadicallyin parts at different points in the room.

Balanced, and no spot-lighting. Two main qualities for natural sound, just like in the concert hall. Those systems that disappear, allowing the listener to lose himself in the experience, all share this in common, in my opinion. There are other qualities too.

As far as sonic cues go, I am with Mike and Elliot who recently wrote in another thread. They want it all, no trade offs between relaxed (OCD Mikey) or exciting (Jay), or choices between attributes. Live unamplified music has it all, why not go for it with our systems, especially at the level here on "What's Best"? How much a system disappears is a matter degrees of success at getting closer to the live unamplified experience. A simple boom box or car stereo can also simply disappear and take one right to the music and emotions.

I think the obsessed audiophile longs for the simple experience he remembers from days past when he listened to music at a dorm party or with a girl in his car and did not think about the sound so much. We in the hobby have been taught to analyze and pick apart, to "hear" the black backgrounds and pinpoint images, the low noise floor, the tonal balance, the slam. All this to judge differences in the components we choose next. It keeps us churning and people reading instead of listening.

The disappearing systems, the ones that allow us to fully engage and experience the music, are the goal, specifically because they allow us to forget about the gear and which HIFI attributes we notice. I do not want to notice any. Those who chase these parts are cursed. The others who seek a more holistic experience, not noticing the system, are blessed and fortunate to be enjoying the music at such a level.

 

[Rexp]

In the case of that speaker (Altec), the detail is not the issue - quite the opposite - it is the frequency range that is limited.

I wasn't addressing your video, I was replying to Ron....

Regardless, do you think that the billions of people who enjoy music on a daily basis with lo-fi equipment are not getting "emotional responses"?

Yes billions are missing out, including you apparently.

 

[hopkins]

Yes billions are missing out, including you apparently.

I use 4 different systems to listen to music:

- Etymotic headphones plugged in to my phone
- Larger headphones plugged in to my desktop computer
- Desktop speakers (Vanatoo) also at my desktop computer
- speakers in my living room

Each of these systems has positives and negatives. I enjoy music with all of them, just differently.

I don't think any of these fundamentally change the appreciation I have of music. If the music is good, I am going to enjoy it in all of them. If the music is not, I won't. The only thing I am really missing out on is the music I have not yet listened to.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes billions are missing out, including you apparently.

I disagree here.

Kedar is correct that a person who never has heard music reproduced by a better system may very well achieve satisfying emotional engagement from a table radio or a car stereo or a boombox.

 

[bonzo75]

I disagree here.

Even a blind squirrel stumbles upon a nut once in a while, and Kedar actually is correct that a person who never has heard music reproduced by a better system may very well achieve satisfying emotional engagement from a table radio or a car stereo or a boombox.

No I can state many such examples. Done so many times with Lampi Valves, at Jeroen with cartridges, with amp compares, etc. many. Almost none contrasting except where agenda plays a role

 

[PeterA]

I disagree here.

Kedar is correct that a person who never has heard music reproduced by a better system may very well achieve satisfying emotional engagement from a table radio or a car stereo or a boombox.

And that person even if he has heard music reproduced by a better system may still very well achieve satisfying emotional engagement from a table radio or a car stereo or a boombox. For me, it is all about the things a system does to distract. Minimize the distractions, and you get to the music, and that can be from all sorts of levels of gear as I learned from listening to my CDs in my truck while driving down the highway to the factory to pick up my new turntable.

 

[bonzo75]

I definitely like LP rips from YouTube of high quality recordings played back on the Naim Muso over Bluetooth better than 95 percent of hifi systems I have heard. I even linked some brilliant ones from Furtwangler no one seems to have even tried them. That was a test.

 

[Argonaut]

I was rather hoping that this thread might right its self and return to the OP’s raison d'etre for creating it Are there not enough threads dedicated to the various hobby horses that have dragged this thread off course of late ?

 

[bonzo75]

Well I don’t like this thread anyway. OP kept it alive for 5 years. The first good posts after the initial discussions were the cut paste of the comments from the two speaker designers. And the Fremer video, which let people know he thinks videos of his system are representative, and people could hear what it sounds like. Apart from that, it is chitter chatter