Videos - oomph, tympani, menace, power

[Argonaut]

@stehno , I concur , Your rendition most certainly paints a picture closer to and of a live event and is entirely more believable in that regard.

 

[tima]

Actually, Peter, I was sorta’ thinking of other videos as Tim's videos weren't too bad. But listening to Tim's Copland video here, I'd say Tim’s videos certainly fall into that same questionable category.

Here’s my flavor of I think the same interpretation as Tim’s.

Listen to the bass notes for the first 20 seconds or so of either video. At around the 14 sec mark the bass on Tim’s video gets quite unmusical. With Tim's Copland video you should hear a rather odd bass as though it’s broadcasting from a deep dark tunnel and my ears are trapped in the same tunnel for greatest effect. That’s Tim’s room you’re hearing and those poorly-defined bass notes cannot be found in the recording. Not to mention the bass is greatly exaggerated. Tim's mids and highs seem much less scathed by this effect and sound musical.

Some may like or prefer this type of bass perhaps because that's what they hear in their own room. But I can assure you you'll never hear this type of bass live in a concert hall. To confirm all one needs to do is find and listen to the "official" youtube flavor.

Since we all have listening rooms and since no speaker/room interface is perfect, we all experience these same effects to one degree or another. Obviously, the goal is to absolutely minimize such effects. But that's what they are - effects. Even Tim's Copland video's bass is much better than some of others' videos.

Some may think Tim's video sounds warmer, richer, cozier, more musical sounding than my video which in comparison may come across as a bit thin or lean. But with such effects on Tim's bass regions and elsewhere, before determining which is more genuine, one needs to ask, are they hearing what's embedded in the recording or are they hearing what's embedded in the recording plus a good dose of the room?

If we're hearing a good dose of Tim's room, that inherently implies added warmth, richness, tonality, etc. because our rooms are tiny compared to the concert hall. And too many times it seems we confuse this room-induced warmth as being more musical. Especially if we hear similar sounds on our own configs. But such sounds are never heard in a sufficiently tuned concert hall or recording.

As I've mentioned before, it's kinda' like the sound of a bouncing basketball in a small fully furnished and carpeted walk-in-closet vs the sound of a bouncing basketball in a full-court gymnasium. One will sound warmer, richer, etc than the other but as we know a basketball's natural habitat is the full-court gym - not the walk-in-closet. Not the best analogy but I hope the point is made.

If you have a macbook and headphones I suggest volume level is 2 maybe 3 notches below max volume for best comparison.

An interesting analysis -- thank you for taking the time to write it. Can I assume your source is some type of file processed through your system of adjustment? - can't remember its name. In part I can imagine what we describe reflects the different approaches we appear to take to listening, sonics vs music. For evaluation, I'm less inclined to speculate about, or make up, causes for what I hear and then use those as the basis of analysis, and more inclined to compare with my live music experience. I"m sure there are differences in our memory's live music template.

What you refer to as '"those poorly-defined bass notes" in the opening measures are a product of a bass drum struck with a soft mallet and two timpani skins struck with a hard mallet. Large bass drum strikes are somewhat amorphous, generally lacking articulation. Here, the massive 'whumpf' of the bass drum strike at double forte almost consumes the timpani which can be articulate and tonal depending where on their skin they are struck and with what type of mallet. The 'bass' on your recording is slightly more articulate than mine, yes, but simply saying "it's the room" does not tell us which is more realistic. I don't think either recording does a sufficient job of differentiating the two different timpani frequencies which are somewhat video masked by the bass drum, although I can tell those in my room.

I agree that your video's tonality at all frequencies is "a bit thin or lean", the huge tam-tam, the horns, the trumpets. the trombones. It's not so thin that it bothers me -- but you want to make a relative comparison. I would probably not use your words "thin or lean" but talk in terms of a lack of resonance and harmonics. Whether that tonality is a product of your room, your system, your adjustment machine or your preferences does not matter to me. Explaining your sound in contrast to mine by needing to know if the cause is the room or the recording or both is not my method. All (indoor) systems are in rooms, so it is what it is -- a system in a room. I make no claim about the virtues or their lack in my room -- it allows me to experience the energy in the performance in a way I find leans toward realism. I make no claim that my system's sound is very close to what is heard in the concert hall. It is sufficiently natural to my experience of live acoustic music.

I have no problem with your video at least in terms of a compulsion to analyze it. I'm largely responding to discuss the different methods we're using for evaluation. If you're happy with your video, that's great. I'm happy with mine.

edit: crossed out words remove my mistake in confusing stenho with Carlos. mea culpa

 

[bonzo75]

Mahler 2s

 

[tima]

Mahler 2s

It would help to include the performance or catalog nbr if you have that.

 

[bonzo75]

It would help to include the performance or catalog nbr if you have that.

2 are Columbia Klemperer’s and the Goto Altec in the middle is the Mehta Decca

 

[tima]

2 are Columbia Klemperer’s and the Goto Altec in the middle is the Mehta Decca

I just received the Klemperer EMI on Warner Classics. Need to clean it then will record.

 

[PeterA]

Actually, Peter, I was sorta’ thinking of other videos as Tim's videos weren't too bad. But listening to Tim's Copland video here, I'd say Tim’s videos certainly fall into that same questionable category.

You were commenting on what you were inferring was the poor bass performance of horn systems via videos on this page. I addressed that comment directly. I preferred the bass performance of the two Mahler videos to your video.

Now you seem to have moved on and change the subject, throwing in different videos for discussion. I still think the horn system video sounds more realistic.

 

[Rexp]

An interesting analysis -- thank you for taking the time to write it. Can I assume your source is some type of file processed through your system of adjustment? - can't remember its name. In part I can imagine what we describe reflects the different approaches we appear to take to listening, sonics vs music. For evaluation, I'm less inclined to speculate about, or make up, causes for what I hear and then use those as the basis of analysis, and more inclined to compare with my live music experience. I"m sure there are differences in our memory's live music template.

What you refer to as '"those poorly-defined bass notes" in the opening measures are a product of a bass drum struck with a soft mallet and two timpani skins struck with a hard mallet. Large bass drum strikes are somewhat amorphous, generally lacking articulation. Here, the massive 'whumpf' of the bass drum strike at double forte almost consumes the timpani which can be articulate and tonal depending where on their skin they are struck and with what type of mallet. The 'bass' on your recording is slightly more articulate than mine, yes, but simply saying "it's the room" does not tell us which is more realistic. I don't think either recording does a sufficient job of differentiating the two different timpani frequencies which are somewhat video masked by the bass drum, although I can tell those in my room.

I agree that your video's tonality at all frequencies is "a bit thin or lean", the huge tam-tam, the horns, the trumpets. the trombones. It's not so thin that it bothers me -- but you want to make a relative comparison. I would probably not use your words "thin or lean" but talk in terms of a lack of resonance and harmonics. Whether that tonality is a product of your room, your system, your adjustment machine or your preferences does not matter to me. Explaining your sound in contrast to mine by needing to know if the cause is the room or the recording or both is not my method. All (indoor) systems are in rooms, so it is what it is -- a system in a room. I make no claim about the virtues or their lack in my room -- it allows me to experience the energy in the performance in a way I find leans toward realism. I make no claim that my system's sound is very close to what is heard in the concert hall. It is sufficiently natural to my experience of live acoustic music.

I have no problem with your video at least in terms of a compulsion to analyze it. I'm largely responding to discuss the different methods we're using for evaluation. If you're happy with your video, that's great. I'm happy with mine.

The thinness, and I would add harshness, bothers me, probably a problem with the digital version he's playing, the version on Tidal is not harsh and sounds more like your playback.

 

[Argonaut]

The thinness, and I would add harshness, bothers me, probably a problem with the digital version he's playing, the version on Tidal is not harsh and sounds more like your playback.

Chortle … So when / where did you last attend a full live orchestral performance of this work as your frame of reference ?

For my part , BB22 BB23 :

London Philharmonic – Edward Gardner conducts Mahler’s Resurrection Symphony

The Southbank poster blurb for the London Philharmonic’s 2023-24 season-opener sold Mahler’s ‘Resurrection’ Symphony as “a journey to the end of the w

www.classicalsource.com

@stenho ‘s version has at least some trace of a pulse.

 

[Rexp]

Chortle … So when / where did you last attend a full live orchestral performance of this work as your frame of reference ?

For my part , BB22 BB23 :

London Philharmonic – Edward Gardner conducts Mahler’s Resurrection Symphony

The Southbank poster blurb for the London Philharmonic’s 2023-24 season-opener sold Mahler’s ‘Resurrection’ Symphony as “a journey to the end of the w

www.classicalsource.com

@stenho ‘s version has at least some trace of a pulse.

Chortle indeed, how did you listen to the videos?

 

[Argonaut]

Chortle indeed, how did you listen to the videos?

Used to be Kedars main system but he said it was wasted on him …

 

[stehno]

An interesting analysis -- thank you for taking the time to write it. Can I assume your source is some type of file processed through your system of adjustment? - can't remember its name.

Not sure what you’re talking about here, Tim. I’ve got CD’s (mostly Redbook) ripped to a SSD connected directly to my OPPO 205 cdp via a USB cable. Since I’m using the OPPO’s volume attenuator (no pre-amp), the input signal goes from the OPPO’s analog LR balanced outputs straight into my amps, then straight into the speakers. The subwoofers get their low-level input signal straight from the OPPO’s analog single-ended LR connections. No other file processing of any sort – nor would I want any.

In part I can imagine what we describe reflects the different approaches we appear to take to listening, sonics vs music. For evaluation, I'm less inclined to speculate about, or make up, causes for what I hear and then use those as the basis of analysis, and more inclined to compare with my live music experience. I"m sure there are differences in our memory's live music template.

Understood. But that’s where some “official” Youtube flavor for comparison comes in real handy. Then we don’t have to rely on our highly questionable long-term audio memory.

What you refer to as '"those poorly-defined bass notes" in the opening measures are a product of a bass drum struck with a soft mallet and two timpani skins struck with a hard mallet. Large bass drum strikes are somewhat amorphous, generally lacking articulation. Here, the massive 'whumpf' of the bass drum strike at double forte almost consumes the timpani which can be articulate and tonal depending where on their skin they are struck and with what type of mallet.

Yes, I get that. But with some of the bass notes in yours and other’s videos, it’s almost like my ears are trapped inside a tympani drum.

The 'bass' on your recording is slightly more articulate than mine,

Slightly?

yes, but simply saying "it's the room" does not tell us which is more realistic. I don't think either recording does a sufficient job of differentiating the two different timpani frequencies which are somewhat video masked by the bass drum, although I can tell those in my room.

But it is the room. Well... a good portion of it anyway. All that we could possibly hear comes from the system, the speaker/room interface, and a hybrid of both.

When we observe significant sonic shortcomings of any sort or type, they are the result of significant under-addressed shortcomings in our system (compromised fidelity of electric input signal) or under-addressed shortcomings in our speaker/room interface (compromised fidelity of the acoustic energy reaching our ears).

That said, my limited experience tells me the booming deep tunnel-like bass you seem to prefer is the result of an under-addressed speaker/room interface while the bass’ over-exaggeration is the result of under-addressed shortcomings (distortions) in the system itself. Both shortcomings of which we all have to one degree or another.

I agree that your video's tonality at all frequencies is "a bit thin or lean", the huge tam-tam, the horns, the trumpets. the trombones. It's not so thin that it bothers me -- but you want to make a relative comparison. I would probably not use your words "thin or lean" but talk in terms of a lack of resonance and harmonics.

Actually, I never said mine sounded thin or lean – nor do I think it is so. I only said some may perceive mine as sounding thin or lean in comparison to others’ videos and their room-induced warmth and too often we lack the ability to discern such things.

Whether that tonality is a product of your room, your system, your adjustment machine or your preferences does not matter to me.

Ain’t got no adjustment machine. Not sure where you get this notion unless perhaps Peter’s spreading rumors about me?

Hopefully, anything positive a discerning ear may hear is the result of painstaking attention to both universal distortions at the system (electrical) and also at the speaker/room interface (acoustical). Especially since everything we hear from our playback configs will always boil down to these two sectors.

Explaining your sound in contrast to mine by needing to know if the cause is the room or the recording or both is not my method. All (indoor) systems are in rooms, so it is what it is -- a system in a room. I make no claim about the virtues or their lack in my room -- it allows me to experience the energy in the performance in a way I find leans toward realism. I make no claim that my system's sound is very close to what is heard in the concert hall. It is sufficiently natural to my experience of live acoustic music.

That’s fine. Except that I’ve never heard bass like yours at any live performance of any sort and to be honest, I doubt you have either. But again, this can be confirmed by comparing our videos to an “official” youtube video that by-passes both system and room. But it’s also kinda’ sad when at least significant portions of that bloated bass can be remedied for free.

I have no problem with your video at least in terms of a compulsion to analyze it. I'm largely responding to discuss the different methods we're using for evaluation. If you're happy with your video, that's great. I'm happy with mine.

edit: crossed out words remove my mistake in confusing stenho with Carlos. mea culpa

No worries. Eating ice cream can also bring momentary happiness too – even when loaded up with tasty GMO products that may be softly killing me. But as with any performance-oriented pursuit, improved performance should be our goal – not improved happiness. Though happiness can be a natural by-product of genuinely improved performance.

That said, I can’t help but cringe a bit when somebody says that type of bass in your and others’ videos reminds them of a live performance. I’m reminded just how little we should rely on our audio memory and/or education. Which for some time now I’ve suspected is greatly over-exaggerated by most. At the moment I’m only aware of 1 person in the entire industry who could possibly rely on such memory/education and it’s pretty incredible to witness firsthand.

 

[morricab]

Not sure what you’re talking about here, Tim. I’ve got CD’s (mostly Redbook) ripped to a SSD connected directly to my OPPO 205 cdp via a USB cable. Since I’m using the OPPO’s volume attenuator (no pre-amp), the input signal goes from the OPPO’s analog LR balanced outputs straight into my amps, then straight into the speakers. The subwoofers get their low-level input signal straight from the OPPO’s analog single-ended LR connections. No other file processing of any sort – nor would I want any.


Understood. But that’s where some “official” Youtube flavor for comparison comes in real handy. Then we don’t have to rely on our highly questionable long-term audio memory.


Yes, I get that. But with some of the bass notes in yours and other’s videos, it’s almost like my ears are trapped inside a tympani drum.


Slightly?


But it is the room. Well... a good portion of it anyway. All that we could possibly hear comes from the system, the speaker/room interface, and a hybrid of both.

When we observe significant sonic shortcomings of any sort or type, they are the result of significant under-addressed shortcomings in our system (compromised fidelity of electric input signal) or under-addressed shortcomings in our speaker/room interface (compromised fidelity of the acoustic energy reaching our ears).

That said, my limited experience tells me the booming deep tunnel-like bass you seem to prefer is the result of an under-addressed speaker/room interface while the bass’ over-exaggeration is the result of under-addressed shortcomings (distortions) in the system itself. Both shortcomings of which we all have to one degree or another.


Actually, I never said mine sounded thin or lean – nor do I think it is so. I only said some may perceive mine as sounding thin or lean in comparison to others’ videos and their room-induced warmth and too often we lack the ability to discern such things.


Ain’t got no adjustment machine. Not sure where you get this notion unless perhaps Peter’s spreading rumors about me?

Hopefully, anything positive a discerning ear may hear is the result of painstaking attention to both universal distortions at the system (electrical) and also at the speaker/room interface (acoustical). Especially since everything we hear from our playback configs will always boil down to these two sectors.


That’s fine. Except that I’ve never heard bass like yours at any live performance of any sort and to be honest, I doubt you have either. But again, this can be confirmed by comparing our videos to an “official” youtube video that by-passes both system and room. But it’s also kinda’ sad when at least significant portions of that bloated bass can be remedied for free.


No worries. Eating ice cream can also bring momentary happiness too – even when loaded up with tasty GMO products that may be softly killing me. But as with any performance-oriented pursuit, improved performance should be our goal – not improved happiness. Though happiness can be a natural by-product of genuinely improved performance.

That said, I can’t help but cringe a bit when somebody says that type of bass in your and others’ videos reminds them of a live performance. I’m reminded just how little we should rely on our audio memory and/or education. Which for some time now I’ve suspected is greatly over-exaggerated by most. At the moment I’m only aware of 1 person in the entire industry who could possibly rely on such memory/education and it’s pretty incredible to witness firsthand.

Lots of words spilled but were the recordings even the same version of this piece of music? I ask because I listened to five or six different recordings of this piece and some sounded more like Tim’s and some more like yours.

 

[tima]

Lots of words spilled but were the recordings even the same version of this piece of music? I ask because I listened to five or six different recordings of this piece and some sounded more like Tim’s and some more like yours.

I encourage including the catalog number for each video reported although the reference target for me is not a YouTube video.

 

[PeterA]

Ain’t got no adjustment machine. Not sure where you get this notion unless perhaps Peter’s spreading rumors about me?

No, Stehno. Your videos and comments speak for themselves.

 

[wil]

Lots of words spilled but were the recordings even the same version of this piece of music? I ask because I listened to five or six different recordings of this piece and some sounded more like Tim’s and some more like yours.

It would be nice to know the details on the recordings whenever anyone posts.

Fwiw, the Tim video sounds more natural and musically engaging to me. Yes, the bass could use more definition but I don't hear it detracting from the musical message. Maybe it's the room that's causing some bass bloat or maybe it's in the recording. But I don't hear any objectionable resonances or room colorations.

The Stehno video has nice taught bass, but the Cymbal crashes and the horns sometimes sound harsh. Harshness in a recording always breaks the spell for me.

 

[Rexp]

It would be nice to know the details on the recordings whenever anyone posts.

Fwiw, the Tim video sounds more natural and musically engaging to me. Yes, the bass could use more definition but I don't hear it detracting from the musical message. Maybe it's the room that's causing some bass bloat or maybe it's in the recording. But I don't hear any objectionable resonances or room colorations.

The Stehno video has nice taught bass, but the Cymbal crashes and the horns sometimes sound harsh. Harshness in a recording always breaks the spell for me.

Spot on, it seems that only @Argonaut disagrees, maybe he needs a new boombox.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It would be nice to know the details on the recordings whenever anyone posts.

Yep! People comparing digital videos of different recordings recorded on unfamiliar systems in unfamiliar rooms and thinking they have an understanding of the in-the-room sound of the systems is ludicrous to me.

 

[Argonaut]

Spot on, it seems that only @Argonaut disagrees, maybe he needs a new boombox.

Awwww Bless . You still havn't responded to my question of a little earlier Viz “ So when / where did you last attend a full live orchestral performance of this work as your frame of reference ?“

 

[Rexp]

Yep! People comparing digital videos of different recordings recorded on unfamiliar systems in unfamiliar rooms and thinking they have an understanding of the in-the-room sound of the systems is ludicrous to me.

You can still have an opinion on the sound, no?