What are the pros & cons of high-efficiency horns?

[Audiophile Bill]

I reported a fact. People will draw their conclusions, according to their knowledge, skills, interests and time availability. Mine was that this was not a route that I should go. Part of the message is also that I seriously consider the advice of experts and professionals in such matters.

The fact being the statement from the professional?

The advice from “professionals” in *hifi*is *enormously* heterogeneous. The hobby is riddled with preference, subjectivity and opinion that leads to the enormous diversity in approaches.

But I take your point that you can’t be bothered to attempt this for yourself.

 

[bonzo75]

The fact being the statement from the professional?

The advice from “professionals” in *hifi*is *enormously* heterogeneous. The hobby is riddled with preference, subjectivity and opinion that leads to the enormous diversity in approaches.

But I take your point that you can’t be bothered to attempt this for yourself.

Micro knows a lot of professionals and experts outside this forum, he has stated that often, they advised him to buy XLF, vivaldi. And run it with lamm, Odin / transparent

 

[microstrip]

Micro knows a lot of professionals and experts outside this forum, he has stated that often, they advised him to buy XLF, vivaldi. And run it with lamm, Odin / transparent

Not bad this time, the first part of the post is true, the remaining is absolutely false. Your interpretation skills are improving...

 

[bonzo75]

Not bad this time, the first part of the post is true, the remaining is absolutely false. Your interpretation skills are improving...

So if they didn't advise you, who set you wrong?

 

[microstrip]

So if they didn't advise you, who set you wrong?

Curiously it is not wrong ... The ML3's are still there and play very often ...

 

[morricab]

Some time ago I heard an DIY Kinoshita type speaker and just had to have a pair There is just something to the tremendous drive of two ported high eff 15s coupled to a compression driver. Anyway I had that person build me a pair . He runs his with mini DSP so changing xo ,delay and levels is as easy as typing on a keyboard. I on the there hand sweated nights to create the passive in the TAD spirit, especially as I am using a non TAD compression driver on a non TAD horn. Then there was the agony of waiting for the crossover to be built and sheer terror of hooking it up for the first time. It worked except for a glitch the low pass circuit that ironically is a direct copy of the TAD crossover ( my own high pass kludge works perfectly as designed). My friend with his DSP? No sweat just changes everything with a stroke of a key, easy peasy.

Hi Brad,

Is the mini dsp vastly superior using its digital output to a DAC? I know it seems obvious but I just wondered.

While I don’t have direct experience with minidsp itself and built in DACs, I have used other digital solutions for designing that had built in DACs and the sound was barely tolerable. This is why I used the Accuphase for a long time to good effect. The difference between good and poor electronics in the signal path matters a lot to me and that is why even though I wanted to do this on a reasonable budget I didn’t want the sound kneecapped by shitty DACs. I got a couple of really nice sounding little amps that also work perfect for this setup. Maybe one day I will strap a couple of Kassandra DACs and a couple Genus amps to it and see what is possible (after phase III is complete though) but for now it rivals my very nice Odeon’s with surprisingly small effort.

 

[morricab]

I reported a fact. People will draw their conclusions, according to their knowledge, skills, interests and time availability. Mine was that this was not a route that I should go. Part of the message is also that I seriously consider the advice of experts and professionals in such matters.

There are experts and there are EXPERTS, if you don’t reach a certain competence in an area then you are unlikely to be able one from the other...easy then to be misled.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

While I don’t have direct experience with minidsp itself and built in DACs, I have used other digital solutions for designing that had built in DACs and the sound was barely tolerable. This is why I used the Accuphase for a long time to good effect. The difference between good and poor electronics in the signal path matters a lot to me and that is why even though I wanted to do this on a reasonable budget I didn’t want the sound kneecapped by shitty DACs. I got a couple of really nice sounding little amps that also work perfect for this setup. Maybe one day I will strap a couple of Kassandra DACs and a couple Genus amps to it and see what is possible (after phase III is complete though) but for now it rivals my very nice Odeon’s with surprisingly small effort.

Maybe you can talk Stavros into a multichannel Kasandra

 

[the sound of Tao]

I don’t really know what you want to communicate with this post.

I believe Micro was just trying to help by reminding us not to make the mistake he may or may not have made of giving up on a dream at the very first hurdle.

I usually like to trip over challenges multiple times before discarding ideas that have evolved over time and propose some great merit. Giving up because one dude offered an opinion doesn’t seem to me like a particularly judicious and rigorous decision making and by then not having experienced certainly doesn’t prove the advice sage.

All that can be said is it may or may not have been good or poor advice for micro at that point in time. Nothing ventured nothing gained or lost.

The guys who have taken up the challenge of a diy speaker haven’t then not listened to music while doing their investment into diy adventure. The time for a diy project design and construct journey is an adjunct and very separate to the purely listening to music time which is very much a different kind of therapy. Design is design and building is building whether it’s designing an industrial product or a video or a landscape. These things are not substitutes for listening to music though they might be a substitute for say composing music.

The guys who have gone there or are perhaps under way going there like Kodomo, Dave C, Jdza, Bill, Brad and the many others on other forums mostly seem to have got good things out of it. Best part for others is many eventually get to share in the journey. This thread has been very helpful.

 

[microstrip]

(...) All that can be said is it may or may not have been good or poor advice for micro at that point in time. Nothing ventured nothing gained or lost. (...)

All good points, particularly what I quoted in bold. Thanks.

 

[microstrip]

There are experts and there are EXPERTS, if you don’t reach a certain competence in an area then you are unlikely to be able one from the other...easy then to be misled.

Fortunately as far as I remember all those I have referred in WBF as true experts have been heavily scrutinized in the areas I was addressing. But yes, we should be careful because someone can be an expert in some audio areas and not in others.

 

[kodomo]

Trying out a TAD-4003 mounted on a 270hz JMLC horn with 1.5" throat has always been on my mind. If I see a good deal somewhere for these drivers, I would go for them. This combination may replace my midrange channel which has Radian 850 with a 200hz Tracrix horn with 2" throat. I only run this channel from 500hz to roughly 4.5khz...

 

[bonzo75]

don´t agree
just need to adress the slight peak
me and a friend tested compression drivers and horn combos for 3 years and the 4003 correctly implemented sounds best in all horns we tested compared to all other drivers we tested
spectacularly low distortion too, wich is already easily hearable during the distortion measurement itself...
in 2404 the 4003 is meant to go all the way up in a CD like horn which gives it a sort of forgiving character due to the hf roloff, which in itself is ok
I use it from 600-6K in JMLC 270 with TAD TD-2002 in JMLC2500 on top
best
Leif

Sorry just checked, Bruce was referring to the 4001 not 4003

 

[bonzo75]

Trying out a TAD-4003 mounted on a 270hz JMLC horn with 1.5" throat has always been on my mind. If I see a good deal somewhere for these drivers, I would go for them. This combination may replace my midrange channel which has Radian 850 with a 200hz Tracrix horn with 2" throat. I only run this channel from 500hz to roughly 4.5khz...

What are the crossover points for your Radian? And which tweeter do you use?

 

[kodomo]

What are the crossover points for your Radian? And which tweeter do you use?

Radian 850 works roughly between 500-4.5khz, then there is another channel with jmlc 1400hz horn that works for roughly the next octave and then a fostex t500amkII tweeter covering the rest of the upper region.

 

[kodomo]

Here you are Ked, much easier this way

 

[Tango]

Horn people put focus on quality of drivers. Cone speakers seem to emphasize more on cabinet technology. How different.

 

[jdza]

Horn people put focus on quality of drivers. Cone speakers seem to emphasize more on cabinet technology. How different.

That is the perception. Truth is that the horn itself is much more important than the driver .Even more important is the horn driver interface but the most important thing of all is that neither horn nor driver be stressed beyond its frequency comfort zone.

This last aspect is why there are A7/A5 VOTTs that sound fantastic and others that sound really poor-all due to the mid/tweeter horn used, big enough for the good ones and way too small for the poor ones.

Sorry just checked, Bruce was referring to the 4001 not 4003

I spotted that but thought it too anal to comment. Both Leif and myself seem to have reached similar conclusions in line with Dr. Edgar's findings . The 4003 really is in another class

 

[bonzo75]

Horn people put focus on quality of drivers. Cone speakers seem to emphasize more on cabinet technology. How different.

It's the driver and the horn combo with the crossover. There is no reason to have all these artificial material cabinets made by NASA. Cabinet plans exist. Also simple crossovers and simplicity works better than complexity though surely there can be a 1 in a 1000 case where all 6 ways come together to produce great sound. More likely it fails

 

[Duke LeJeune]

Truth is that the horn itself is much more important than the driver. Even more important is the horn driver interface but the most important thing of all is that neither horn nor driver be stressed beyond its frequency comfort zone.

Well said. Totally agree.