What are the pros & cons of high-efficiency horns?

Also simple crossovers and simplicity works better than complexity though surely there can be a 1 in a 1000 case where all 6 ways come together to produce great sound. More likely it fails

Bonzo,if I understand you correctly ,you seem to be saying that a 2 way with a simple crossover is always better than a 6 way with a complex crossover? That is absolutely correct but.... Let us take a 2 way with a simple crossover,i.e. first order or 6db/oct. If you are crossing over a 15 incher to a horn you don't want to go much above 700Hz,except if you are Tannoy. That means the compression driver will only be 6db down by 350Hz and only 12 db down by 175 Hz. Ouch! Still very audible. How soft are you willing to play and how honky do you want to be?

Life is a series of compromises strung together by coincidences. Nowehere is this more true than in horn speaker design. You just have to choose the compromises you are willing to live with and dive in. Sometimes the water is nice, sometimes lousy. One can theorise and study other's compromises all you want but in the end it will get you nowhere at all.Sooner or later sawdust will have to fly.
 
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Two dual 15 inch front loaded front firing horn, crossed from 500, give or take.

I totally agree it is compromises. What I have to find is a higher frequency driver that stretches a wide bandwidth similar to the tad and crosses over properly. Also then I have to look at if the driver rolls off a bit earlier what do I do about the tweeter.
 
I am not theorizing, I am copying ditto, and then will play with the higher frequency area. This forum is only for chat and to mod micro
 
Jdza, you were the one who pointed me to the French audiophiles a couple of years ago. I am meeting 5 of them the following weekend
 
Two dual 15 inch front loaded front firing horn, crossed from 500, give or take.

I totally agree it is compromises. What I have to find is a higher frequency driver that stretches a wide bandwidth similar to the tad and crosses over properly. Also then I have to look at if the driver rolls off a bit earlier what do I do about the tweeter.

There are other things beyond bandwidth of the drivers. My midrange horn and 2" driver can cover what my upper mid channel and what its 1" driver is capable play. SPL measures flat too. Although it complicates things, adding that 1" and the smaller horn transforms the sound for the better.

Once more this 1" with its beryllium diaphragm and its small jmlc horn can play up to 20khz but adding the fostex t500amkII and cutting the 1" about 10k again makes the sound much better.

These additional channels create a more complicated acoustic lobe (you wont be sitting very close to them) and a need for a very very very good crossover but its definitely worth it if you are able to do it.
 
Trying out a TAD-4003 mounted on a 270hz JMLC horn with 1.5" throat has always been on my mind. If I see a good deal somewhere for these drivers, I would go for them. This combination may replace my midrange channel which has Radian 850 with a 200hz Tracrix horn with 2" throat. I only run this channel from 500hz to roughly 4.5khz...
only problem is that Autotech in Poland only makes it with 2 throat
BUT I have a source that´s cnc´d my adapters...
20180613_191700.jpg
 
you´ve come to the right man :cool:
I replaced 4001 and 2001 with 4003 and 2002
the new drivers have much less distortion and are much cleaner and pleasant to listen too
4001 tend to have a little "brittle" signature on certain frequencies
difference to 4003 might be different diaphragm suspension
the 4003 performs further down in same horn with more "growl"
both have better body and harmonics
2002 is more extended and supertweeterlike in extension, but still with the twack and body of a 1" compression driver
this is why I prefer it to ET-703...could possibly add over 15-20K but don´t see the point
4003 is also a better candidate to cover whole range from hipass in a constant directivity horn, due to more even response upwards above 10K
no other drivers we tested were even close
JBL 2450SL with Truextent on a good second
best
Leif

I just saw this. I was wondering if Tang's 4001 2001 and 703 could be replaced by one 4003, after I heard the 4003, if required with a tweeter, was discussing this with Bill. Didn't know 2002 made that much difference good to know.
 
Jdza, you were the one who pointed me to the French audiophiles a couple of years ago. I am meeting 5 of them the following weekend

Bonzo I really envy you your exposure. I have neither met nor communicated with any of them. I cannot tell you how shattered I was when the one system I revered and got virtually all my inspiration from disappointed you so.. I absolutely do not doubt your judgment but I was confident that that would be the system to end all journeys (despite never having heard it myself)

Maybe it is a good thing i never heard that system in Grasse as I may then have taken another road and right now right here I want to be at no other place in my long audio journey than where I am.In the end there are more differences than similarities between my system and that one but still if it wasn't for those grainy photos on that seminal Norwegian site I would have taken other roads.
 
I also used Marchand XM-46 for lowpassing my woofertowers under my AG Trio
dead quiet and and a very good solution imo
my present 3-way sattellites are passively x/o´d and sounds great
but you need a guy who really knows his business to make the filters
I have one such guy and we always look out for the driver horn combo to tell us where it want´s to be crossed over at what slope from the raw curves
have to play with the drivers and don´t force them to do something they really won´t
the midbasshorns rolls off acoustically by at least 50db from 75 or so so no hp needed
rest is basically12db electrically and 24db acoustically
simple filters with few high quality parts: Duelund CAST, Northcreek and Intertechnik inductors and Mundorf supreme silver in oil caps
wired with silver in silk or cotton
phase, impulsrespons etc is all in ballpark
reg 4003...
before I landed on them I bought a pair of ALE 7550DE, but thought it was a pure bling driver with crappy "toilet roll" core coil amateur edition
impossible to align properly without shims and shit and really reflected the difference between a hifi cult product and the professionalism of a TAD design
distortion figures were nothing to write home about either
sold them to a Vietnamese gentleman, who replaced his GOTO rig with ALE !?!
never regretted that sale
since then I´ve sort of settled with my present drivers
best
Leif
 
I just saw this. I was wondering if Tang's 4001 2001 and 703 could be replaced by one 4003, after I heard the 4003, if required with a tweeter, was discussing this with Bill. Didn't know 2002 made that much difference good to know.
703 also have a deviating radiation pattern compared to JMLC, so I wouldn´t mix them
when I refer to JMLC I have the full rollback version in mind
excellent aerodynamics and smoothes horns I´ve heard
 
I believe Micro was just trying to help by reminding us not to make the mistake he may or may not have made of giving up on a dream at the very first hurdle.

I usually like to trip over challenges multiple times before discarding ideas that have evolved over time and propose some great merit. Giving up because one dude offered an opinion doesn’t seem to me like a particularly judicious and rigorous decision making and by then not having experienced certainly doesn’t prove the advice sage.

All that can be said is it may or may not have been good or poor advice for micro at that point in time. Nothing ventured nothing gained or lost.

The guys who have taken up the challenge of a diy speaker haven’t then not listened to music while doing their investment into diy adventure. The time for a diy project design and construct journey is an adjunct and very separate to the purely listening to music time which is very much a different kind of therapy. Design is design and building is building whether it’s designing an industrial product or a video or a landscape. These things are not substitutes for listening to music though they might be a substitute for say composing music.

The guys who have gone there or are perhaps under way going there like Kodomo, Dave C, Jdza, Bill, Brad and the many others on other forums mostly seem to have got good things out of it. Best part for others is many eventually get to share in the journey. This thread has been very helpful.

Sounds like he was never serious about plunging into DIY...it is always easy to use an appeal to authority as justification to do or to not do something. My latest project started when I was reading about the Troels Gravessen DIY TQWT and DTQWT designs, which were interesting. I thought “gee wouldn’t be cool to put a horn on top rather than a soft dome tweeter?” Then I started surveying the landscape for horns and drivers as well as a crossover solution. Made schematic drawings of what it should look like etc. Once I decided on the driver, horn and crossover, I looked for a commercial wideband driver to fit the mid/bass application. It just so happened that Supravox made a complete single driver speaker with the driver I wanted and a TQWT loaded cabinet. And so on...so far about a year of planning, designing, buying, assembling and tuning. Just step by step and it’s fun and competitive with some very good commercial offerings.
 
only problem is that Autotech in Poland only makes it with 2 throat
BUT I have a source that´s cnc´d my adapters...
View attachment 57916

That is what I would do as well because I would like to match the 4003 internal exit angle to the throat of the horn. I can do that transition through that adapter.
 
that adapter is extremely critical and my man has designed a fantastic adapter
you can have the worlds best driver and horn, but a shitty adapter(lke they often sell with TH-4001 clones) can ruin everything
you give me a buzz if needed

btw he also cnc´d a set of JMLC 2500 full rollback in alu
here compared to the Autoech JMLC 1400 full rollback in Nextel paint
20180729_134424.jpg
 
What drivers are you guys using on your mid bass right now and what have you tried on your journey?
 
that adapter is extremely critical and my man has designed a fantastic adapter
you can have the worlds best driver and horn, but a shitty adapter(lke they often sell with TH-4001 clones) can ruin everything
you give me a buzz if needed

btw he also cnc´d a set of JMLC 2500 full rollback in alu
here compared to the Autoech JMLC 1400 full rollback in Nextel paint
View attachment 57917
I definetly feel the same about the adapter. Great to know more people are available to produce these. What is the cost of the adapter from your friend? If he does not like to publish, please pm me.

Yes, those are nearly identical to my jmlc 1400 from autotech, mine are darker black but I do not use them like you do. I have another channel on top of them with my favorite tweeters, the fostex t500amkII
 
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I definetly feel the same about the adapter. Great to know more people are available to produce these. What is the cost of the adapter from your friend? If he does not like to publish, please pm me.

Yes, those are nearly identical to my jmlc 1400 from autotech, mine are darker black but I do not use them like you do. I have another channel on top of them with my favorite tweeters, the fostex t500amkII

I guess you´d be happy with 2002 covering for the 500AMKII as well....:eek:
 
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