What can you learn from looking inside an amp ?
- Thread starter germinal
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Noted. I just didn’t think the 2010 was anything special for the price. For me it’s SET!
Carlos, I certainly never said or hinted that his question was not valid, only his misstatements.
Looking inside an amp is fun, but not very instructive. Given how few high-end components get sold and how much time is invested in designing them, the cost of parts isn't the only determinant of the cost of the product. Circuit design is ultimately responsible for the sound quality. You're better off with a super-quality engineer who takes their time to perfect the circuit than super-quality parts in a hasty, ill-considered design. And that super-engineer must be adequately compensated from the few products that are sold. Comparisons with heavily subsidized (i.e. money losing) industries like aerospace or defense are meaningless. Instead, we have audiophiles with incredibly deep pockets who are willing to subsidize (at their expense, not the engineer's) ridiculously high investments in the design of niche products. I've had great fun watching the development of the high end since I first picked up a Stereophile magazine in the 70s—it's just as much fun today. Just don't take it personally if you can't afford the best components.
There is plenty to know but few here do understand it. the cost of caps is way more then you think. but the cost to design , make it work , sound good
be able to drive the load of speakers
then put this in a great solid case that can be dropped and still
work
when I look and see specs there is a ton of details for me. can it drive a low z load. big caps can make an amp sound slow but there are ways to fix this
look at newer Krell’s and now dags stuff. No big caps , higher buss voltage
it’s all in the design not the box. most stuff we buy or see is very well made to me. but how we use makes it great or not. i love seeing the insides of amps
and preamps
be able to drive the load of speakers
then put this in a great solid case that can be dropped and still
work
when I look and see specs there is a ton of details for me. can it drive a low z load. big caps can make an amp sound slow but there are ways to fix this
look at newer Krell’s and now dags stuff. No big caps , higher buss voltage
it’s all in the design not the box. most stuff we buy or see is very well made to me. but how we use makes it great or not. i love seeing the insides of amps
and preamps
If you have experience in product development, then you understand how costs are derived. How many of these high-end amplifiers go though HALT (Highly Accelerated Life Cycle Testing) during their development? Do they even under go any shock or vibration testing. I have led engineering design teams developing tools that work reliably at 200 degrees Celsius under extreme shock and vibration. In comparison to the design and development of space and downhole electronics, the design of these high-end electronics is child’s play and I’m qualified to state that the prices are ridiculous. Is not about if anyone is able to afford these components or not, it is about calling a spade a spade. If you don’t mind being a sucker, then bring in the clowns.
Take a look at my equipment. Several million dollars invested. Of course I don’t take it personal. List your equipment so that we can compare and contrast. Talk is cheap and hiding behind the keyboard is even more spineless.
@Carlos269 I am inclined to respect your stated experience and also your stated investment in both system electronics and space to house them. Why not put a $ number on what a ( just for an example ) statement audio amplifier *should* cost and how it should be built, while of course including support, sales volume, and overall business longevity factors?
This is not a challenge, although it could read that way, it is an interest to learn what you are suggesting is possible. I have dabbled only a little in diy and remain in awe of what I feel are the real innovators outside or on the fringe of the commercial audio realm, yet I also see the struggle for the business.
I purchased a great number of my latest audio acquisitions from DIY’ers and custom builders and have come to the conclusion that this is where the real value is. I have some of these masterpieces that will put most manufacturers’ offerings to shame. I have both so I’m qualified to make that statement. No price or cost “should“ be placed or “set” on anything, but part of being an ethical engineer and business person is to price items fairly. I don’t know if you have an engineering degree, but when I got one of my degrees, in electrical engineering, I took a mandatory course in engineering ethics. Not sure if any of this resonates with you.
I know the proof of the pudding is in the eating… but that wasn’t the reason I started this thread.
I was - for example - wondering : if you show someone with experience the guts of 2 amps.. a cheap and very expensive one.. would he or she be be able to pick the high end amp ?
if the difference between a 50k and a 500 dollar amp is only the design.. that would mean hifi is more akin to the world of watches than I would like it to be.
I was - for example - wondering : if you show someone with experience the guts of 2 amps.. a cheap and very expensive one.. would he or she be be able to pick the high end amp ?
if the difference between a 50k and a 500 dollar amp is only the design.. that would mean hifi is more akin to the world of watches than I would like it to be.
Thank you for your reply. Yes the ethics resonate with me deeply.
As an aside I have also had a few 'run ins' with the opposite sort that lurk in the audio world and learned a few lessons 'the hard way'. Additionally I have noted the difficulties in the audio industry with offering real value vs perceived value...yet I am not sure I have developed a final opinion on the 'solution'.
You're absolutely correct in that his title was quite innocuous and seemingly was teeing up a really interesting question worthy of exchanging ideas. But when the narrative devolves into:
...this more than just hints at a value judgment that perhaps the public is getting fleeced. Hence my response. I'm totally willing to proceed on the assumption the title captured the more apt purpose of the posting.
Hi Germinal,
Yes, High end audio is a luxury industry!!!
We had a discussion about it several years ago, and here's my post about luxury , from an economic perspective:
....
high end audio is a luxury industry. The idea is slowly sinking in. Other than a few handful of us on this site, very few are talking about it. The only one in the high end audio media talking about it is Ken Kessler. Manufacturers just wrap the gear in a pretty package or paint it in Lamborghini red and sell it to make us, audiophiles, feel good. As long as folks who purchase this obtained their money in a legal manner, they should be free to spend it any way they want. And there is nothing wrong with having extra pleasure and joy in our lives.
As to your question of what differentiates successful luxury brands from one’s that no one virtually knows about is based on a lot of behavioral psychology and economics research, and Nobel prizes have been awarded for some of these ideas, so it’s not BS.
High end audio has a big preference component – people get conditioned to a taste over time and they prefer it to something else. Just like someone may prefer gruyere to cheddar, Gucci to Louis Vuitton, someone may prefer Magico or Wilson or a horn speaker, tubes or solid state, vinyl or digital, pcm vs dsd, etc. Guys who argue about preferences that are manufactured by their imagination are f*ing morons.
But assuming the sonic signature of the gear appeals to one’s taste, best brands have a good story to tell that appeals to the individual. By good story, I mean it's something that emotionally resonates with the buyer or audio fan. For example, simple and unusual marketing claims such as an “electrostatic sound in a box speaker”, “homemade drivers so precise, nothing on the planet can touch them”, etc. Obviously these marketing messages resonate with people who already like the brand or want to believe the marketing. But from an outsider’s perspective, they seem like pure bullsh!t. Box speakers, no matter how advanced, don't sound as open as stats / planars/ omnis.
As for homemade drivers, many people are led to believe by audio writers and fans that "home made drivers" and in-house CNC machines result in better products. In reality, they are better in some cases but not in others. One can easily design a great driver and have someone else manufacture it. Yet our industry has followed the fashion industry to vertically integrate and call it "better quality" product since it's totally controlled.
But one just has to do a cost benefit analysis of finding space, buying machines, managing the shop, training the staff vs. outsourcing this to some one who has done it. Boeing and Airbus are not vertically integrated and have thousands of suppliers, as Adam Smith predicted; otherwise their products would be way too expensive. If NASA can trust third parties, risking money, human lives, and national pride, why can’t high end audio firms? On the contrary, the fashion industry and high end audio get a free ride to pass the mark-ups of in-house manufacturers to consumers, who are led to believe by audio media personalities that they will get better sound that way. Star-struck high end audio guys, who have let their emotions overtake their brain, justify these claims without any critical thought. Lois Vuitton was the first luxury company to vertically integrate in the name of better quality. But this business strategy has also allowed them to raise prices at will AND pass them on to their customers, who pay up. Luxury practices sometimes trump economic decisions.
Furthermore, the higher the price, the more scarce the item, and the more scarce the item, the more it is desired...
Once brand stories get established, they are embellished by audio reviewers. This appeal to authority figures – the omnipotent individual who really knows what REAL MUSIC sounds like - is one of the strongest marketing methods used by successful companies (and dealers) vs. those that are only able to sell a few units a year to their mother, brother, and brother in-law-audiophile. A New York times critic once confessed that a great many people will believe almost anything that anyone tells them if told with certainty and conviction….
Most of the reviewers are nice guys, but when it comes to choosing their loyalty, so many act like disgusting smegma, and choose the manufacturer over the audio fan. After all, gear is expensive, and one way a reviewer can get a system that costs more than their house for an extended period for free, and write about it before other reviewers, is by echoing the brand stories and improving on them. The best reviewers – who posture as authorities - take the brand story started by manufacturer and load it with emotion. The best of these "audio journalists" write so well that they are able to persuade the fans by casting a spell and getting people believe them how realistic the music will sound using that brand.
Yet high end audio is an experience, and experiences of fine tequilas, string quartets in world class venues, caring deeds, ice cream, and high end audio are rich, complex, multidimensional, and impalpable. Experiences can only be approximately defined by its antecedents and by its relation to other experiences. That’s why most reviewers who never compare are worthless. It’s easy to just proclaim something as “BEST” because some new detail the dude heard tickled his preference. Of course, it is best only in the reviewer’s imagination and contributes to fukc the audio fan culture that we live in, as fans who are interested in purchasing a component are left in the dark, unless they are willing to expend a lot of time and money searching…
Another important consideration is the amount of owners or fans there are. If there is only a small pocket of guys raving about a product in the internet, it does not have the weight of a manufacturer that constantly packs the room at shows or has a whole bunch of raving fans. In a subjective and uncertain hobby as this, having large numbers of fans is proof of success. So the more popular brands get even more popular…
I need to stop here to get some work done. I hope this helps!
But looking at this particular picture ( as a novice ) I would come to the conclusion that it’s mostly and empty box
-- I see the necessary area for passive cooling to protect components and keep the temperature of the chassis within limits
-- I also see spacing needed to keep components separated to improve signal/noise and channel separation
-- I also see a standard chassis size (imagine what would happen if every manufacturer used a different size)
-- this also shows that some pricey engineering tools were used to lay out the mechanicals and assess the thermal effects
.. the power supply is not shielded.
-- look again - those are toroidal transformers that internally cancel electromagnetic fields (minimal radiated energy)
-- the transformer wrapping may be mu metal to absorb any stray radiation
-- there are dual mono power regulators (one for each channel)
-- there are separate transformers for low voltage or analog and digital sections
And besides some caps there seems not much to be seen ?
-- output transistors and heatsinks behind the power supplies with passive cooling holes
-- the input board is not shown (but you can see the power wires going to it)
Price for the components a few 100 dollars ?
-- well maybe; one needs to consider minimum purchase quantities, screening of parts and/or matching (such as output transistors) and precision components (spec'd for precise tolerance, high temp range and reliability)
-- knowing which components, how to build a circuit and where to place them - that's priceless
Price for the box itself probably a 1000 dollars or more.. MSRP a bit more.. ofcourse R&D profits etc needed as well..
-- license fees for the design packages, circuit layout, simulation are also tens of thousands of dollars
-- looks like someone had to assemble the integrated amp - they get paid too
-- the company probably has space for offices, labs, parts, service and manufacturing; that costs money too
-- there are also costs for shipping, taxes, marketing, demo units, warranty service
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