What does Musicality mean?

[Phelonious Ponk]

They seem to have an agreement on one thing: Bose. No audiophile would dare say that Bose is audiophile-worthy... I am curious about how they would describe a Bose system ?

The common joke in the business is "no highs, no lows, must be Bose." Of course the same phrase meaning nothing but midrange (which is not actually true of Bose) could be applied to some esoteric full-range driver horn system being driven by an SET amp, but we would never say it.

Bose is a thing audiophiles love to hate, not because it sounds so terrible, but because it doesn't sound all that good and gets tons of consumer respect and retail margins. It's way overpriced and over-hyped for the performance it delivers. In that regard, it has a lot of company in the "high-end."

Tim

 

[microstrip]

While we, audiophiles, debate about most things and use terms that no one can truly understand, including those using these ... They seem to have an agreement on one thing: Bose. No audiophile would dare say that Bose is audiophile-worthy... I am curious about how they would describe a Bose system ? (...)

Well, it is very simple to describe - a sound that commands for a beer or another type of drink in your hand! A good friend (who owns an excellent audiophile system) says it is the Bose 901 is best system in the world for drinking activities - spacious and melodic music.

 

[JackD201]

The common joke in the business is "no highs, no lows, must be Bose." Of course the same phrase meaning nothing but midrange (which is not actually true of Bose) could be applied to some esoteric full-range driver horn system being driven by an SET amp, but we would never say it.

Bose is a thing audiophiles love to hate, not because it sounds so terrible, but because it doesn't sound all that good and gets tons of consumer respect and retail margins. It's way overpriced and over-hyped for the performance it delivers. In that regard, it has a lot of company in the "high-end."



Tim

Heck, I'd say it but I've never heard a proper horn loudspeaker have no highs and no bass even at 3 watts. Big yes, rolled off not really. I would say it about most any system with sensitivities below 99dB and impedances 4 ohms and below. In other words speakers that shouldn't be driven with low powered amps in the first place........then again some folks dig all mids. I don't get the allure to be frank but to each his own I guess.

"Bose the Drinking Speaker" Hey! I like it! Come to think of it that whompy mid-bass is great for shots. The lack of highs is also great for playing loud but not getting in the way of conversation, there's not much to mask the HF consonant sounds we make that we so far haven't been slurring.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Heck, I'd say it but I've never heard a proper horn loudspeaker have no highs and no bass even at 3 watts.

Different kind of horn. This is the kind of thing I had in mind...

Tim

 

[Lee]

I think musicality means having all the resolution of reference gear but with the smoothness and natural flow of real musicians performing in a space. I am starting to hear this more regularly at RMAF and other shows.

In the past I found numerous systems that had impressive detail but the overall effect was an electronic hash sound that left the impression of the system being artificial.

Musicality preserves the detail but has that "you are there" presence and smoothness.

I don't know if I am making sense here but that's my take on it.

 

[mauidan]

I think musicality means having all the resolution of reference gear but with the smoothness and natural flow of real musicians performing in a space. I am starting to hear this more regularly at RMAF and other shows.

In the past I found numerous systems that had impressive detail but the overall effect was an electronic hash sound that left the impression of the system being artificial.

Musicality preserves the detail but has that "you are there" presence and smoothness.

I don't know if I am making sense here but that's my take on it.

It's the most sense this typical WBF thread has produced.

 

[jadis]

While we, audiophiles, debate about most things and use terms that no one can truly understand, including those using these ... They seem to have an agreement on one thing: Bose. No audiophile would dare say that Bose is audiophile-worthy... I am curious about how they would describe a Bose system ? No PRATT? Only Signals? Mechanical (I have used this one myself ), Warm? Dry? Cold? Sterile? Euphonic?
While I was in Haiti last month .. aside from my headphones/Ipod Touch my main music system was a Bose Wave Radio .. I heard some interesting pieces on it and they were music ... with all the attributes of music

Bose to me was a starting point. It opened my ears. I had Boston Acoustics bookselves and JBL L110 prior to getting a pair of 901s3's for my third system. During those times, I was using Sansui and Pioneer integrated amps with these speakers. I didn't know what audiophile sound was in terms of what TAS and Stereophile were talking about then but surely, even the Bose system provided music and enjoyment to me then. Later on, I learned they were shunned by the audiophile community for reasons already posted here. I suddenly thought of something, that I never heard a Bose partnered with amps like ARC, CJ, Krell, etc. I'm curious if anyone did hear such combinations and what are the comments. Today, when I go to malls and see a Bose store, I enter with the purpose of educating my son and letting him hear what Bose is all about. From their mini speakers/subwoofer for PCs to headphones, one thing I still say to myself, I ain't bad at all. The dynamics and clarity are there to wow any newbie who are attracted by their compact looks and good sound. I do not wonder for a moment at their great success. It's a product that can sell itself.

 

[welwynnick]

I think musicality means having all the resolution of reference gear but with the smoothness and natural flow of real musicians performing in a space. I am starting to hear this more regularly at RMAF and other shows.
In the past I found numerous systems that had impressive detail but the overall effect was an electronic hash sound that left the impression of the system being artificial.
Musicality preserves the detail but has that "you are there" presence and smoothness.
I don't know if I am making sense here but that's my take on it.

I get it. When audiophiles talk about musicality, I think this is the sort of thing they mean; not just a flat FR. Preserving the things that are important (the core of the music) and giving lower priority to other things, such as pushing the boundaries of the envelope.

When I listen to live acoustic music, I don't hear thundering bass, sparkling highs or scalpel-sharp dynamics or any of the other audiophile watch-words. Real music sounds, well, normal. Because cheap audio gear has a limited envelope, there seems to be a need by manufacturers and buyers to have equipment that works right to the boundaries of the envelope (dynamic range, frequency range etc) and to be very precise and resolving.

This seems to mean that good equipment has to extract every last ounce of detail out of every recording, and if you can produce something that simply sounds more detailed, then many people see it as better. Now I don't actually like warmth or muddle or softness (I sold my Arcam gear because of that) but it feels like some gear exaggerates detail - not just more detail, but too much detail. When I'm in a room with a system that does that, and not really listening, it sounds like its making a hissing, spitting, grtting, screeching, trashy, hashy sound. Its like its trying to thow as much detail at you as possible, regardless of whether its wanted information, or whether it should be there at all. In reality its just noise.

Cheap amplifiers and speakers ( NAD? Bose?) can do it better, as long as they concentrate on getting the core right, and aren't over-ambitious with a huge envelope or huge detail.

Again, I don't think that's necessarily what musicality is all about, but it might be a part of it.

Nick

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

What is this "smoothing" if it "preserves all the detail?"

Tim

 

[fas42]

When I listen to live acoustic music, I don't hear thundering bass, sparkling highs or scalpel-sharp dynamics or any of the other audiophile watch-words. Real music sounds, well, normal. Because cheap audio gear has a limited envelope, there seems to be a need by manufacturers and buyers to have equipment that works right to the boundaries of the envelope (dynamic range, frequency range etc) and to be very precise and resolving.

This seems to mean that good equipment has to extract every last ounce of detail out of every recording, and if you can produce something that simply sounds more detailed, then many people see it as better. Now I don't actually like warmth or muddle or softness (I sold my Arcam gear because of that) but it feels like some gear exaggerates detail - not just more detail, but too much detail. When I'm in a room with a system that does that, and not really listening, it sounds like its making a hissing, spitting, grtting, screeching, trashy, hashy sound. Its like its trying to thow as much detail at you as possible, regardless of whether its wanted information, or whether it should be there at all. In reality its just noise.

This I all agree with. In my early years in hifi I was very aware of how most gear, even expensive stuff, felt terribly "electronic", it was almost as if I could smell the warm copper in the circuitry. The test I applied then was talking to the sales person while a system was producing a reasonable volume, and if this was a difficult proposition, was irksome to do because the competition from the system sound was irritating, then I knew that the verdict was a thumbs down.

So it sounds like things have improved at shows, but I still find systems become "spitty" far too easily, especially with the "wrong" recording, and even if they sound "musical" at normal volumes they are unable to retain this quality as you increase volume ...

Frank

 

[KeithR]

Musicality means I tap my toes and forget about my system.

Hifi is where I focus on cymbals, image size, "pinpoint" instrument location, and all the rest of the blather.

Sorry-- this is non technical and Tim won't agree

KeithR

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Musicality means I tap my toes and forget about my system.

Hifi is where I focus on cymbals, image size, "pinpoint" instrument location, and all the rest of the blather.

Sorry-- this is non technical and Tim won't agree

KeithR

Well, let's not say I disagree, let's just say my experience is very different. When listening to music at home, highly resolved detail and imaging can really get my toe tapping. A lack of resolution of detail makes me wonder what's wrong when I should be enjoying what's there.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

I think musicality means having all the resolution of reference gear but with the smoothness and natural flow of real musicians performing in a space. I am starting to hear this more regularly at RMAF and other shows.

In the past I found numerous systems that had impressive detail but the overall effect was an electronic hash sound that left the impression of the system being artificial.

Musicality preserves the detail but has that "you are there" presence and smoothness.

I don't know if I am making sense here but that's my take on it.

Lee,

You are making lot of sense to me. I really appreciate the words "natural flow of real musicians performing". It is one one of the most difficult things to get from a system, but unhappily it depends on the whole system, just not on some parts of it. By whole system I refer to room and recording. It is why evaluating gear in shows and shops sometimes is risky - a good demonstrator will know which recordings he must use and those to avoid, and the probability you will get a similar result in your room is small. You can get the same bass, medium and high frequencies balance, but the "flow of music" is a different matter.

There is a past experience I always remember. Some years ago I was curious about horn systems - I never owned one and it was a terrible blank in my "audiophile culture". I tried to listen to several Avangarde systems, as I read very good things about them. It was a terrible time - horror after horror scene. The demos sounded thrilling, hard and tiring. One day, after I gave up, I entered a small room with a small Avangarde speaker playing with their own amplifier in a show. The "flow of music" was so natural I could not believe. Recording after recording they sounded fantastic and it was a memorable experience. I do not own a horn system, but since that day I started respecting them and understanding what others say about their capabilities. I am sure if it was not for that experience I would still be in the "anti-horn" brigade. This experience also thought me to approach components with a more humble attitude - may be they are capable of this "natural flow of music" even if I am not able to get it with them in my system.

BTW, the Avangarde system also had the resolution you mention.

Thanks for one of the best definitions of musicality in this thread!

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Musicality means I tap my toes and forget about my system.

When listening to music at home, highly resolved detail and imaging can really get my toe tapping.

I rarely listen to music that entails toe-tapping, even live.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I rarely listen to music that entails toe-tapping, even live.

With respect Kal..how then do you react? Toe-tapping or finger-snapping seem like very natural reactions to something that is pleasant/pleasing to the ear?

 

[mauidan]

I think the key word in Lee's post is natural.

The natural conveyance of music, gives us something we subconsciously like, and we become engaged in the music.

If a system is natural enough in its conveyance of music, we desire interaction with it. This interaction activates our natural mind function, allowing the mind to breathe freely and interactively.

The more we interact with the music, the more we explore and discover.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

And so we return to where this discussion always ends: Equipment that's very purpose is to play recordings is somehow more "natural," more "musical" for reproducing less of the recording, less accurately than "clinical," "analytical" gear that plays more of the recording, more accurately.

Right.

You guys like it a little warm and fuzzy. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a preference. It's ok. You don't have to pretend it is somehow, mysteriously, superior. Just enjoy what you enjoy.

Tim

 

[fas42]

And so we return to where this discussion always ends: Equipment that's very purpose is to play recordings is somehow more "natural," more "musical" for reproducing less of the recording, less accurately than "clinical," "analytical" gear that plays more of the recording, more accurately.

Right.

You guys like it a little warm and fuzzy. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a preference. It's ok. You don't have to pretend it is somehow, mysteriously, superior. Just enjoy what you enjoy.

Tim

Unfortunately, Tim, this is apparently where your experiences don't match others. In spite of what you may believe it IS possible to have reproduction that is "natural" and "musical", but at the same time is not warm and fuzzy. Just like live music, in fact. It most definitely achievable to have the playback bombard you with intense, take no prisoner dynamics, grab you by the short and curlies with the gutsiness of the moment, but which does not at the same time send you screaming from the room or induce the migraine of the century. These things can be done ...

microstrip's experiences with the Avangarde are right on the money: the greater the potential of the system, the easier it is for it to be arranged such that it makes a complete mess of the matter.

Frank

 

[Kal Rubinson]

With respect Kal..how then do you react? Toe-tapping or finger-snapping seem like very natural reactions to something that is pleasant/pleasing to the ear?

I conduct! However, conducting, toe-tapping and finger snapping are personal reactions to the sound/music and, imho, offer absolutely no description of the sound/music that anyone else can appreciate. It just says "I like it!"

 

[KeithR]

I conduct! However, conducting, toe-tapping and finger snapping are personal reactions to the sound/music and, imho, offer absolutely no description of the sound/music that anyone else can appreciate. It just says "I like it!"

Ok- I like music, not hifi