What is a reviewer?

[Mike Lavigne]

WhatHiFi (brick and mortar) print reviewers are selling subscriptions and advertising. User feedback I presume contains a large dose of buyer validation bias. Video ranters are selling clicks.

There may not be many supercars in your neck of the woods, in these parts we're falling over them. I know plenty of people who drive them daily, but only two people with stereo systems, only one of which is "uber". I was waiting for the wife one day when this topic arose elsewhere and I spotted perhaps 20 or more $1m+ cars and probably well over 100 in the $200,000+ range. That was in about 10 minutes. They were all being driven or parked on the street. You can see a few here if you scroll. There is a Works Aston Martin bumper to bumper with a $5m McLaren, on the street.

We also love cars

What the f is this ? People taking pictures

forum.psaudio.com

So your comment is just another example of bias, presumably based on where you live, but bias all the same because we all have a far more limited perspective than we might hope or like to admit.

yes, there are very limited places where people show off. pose. but that is not reality for those cars.

some of the richest people in the world live in close proximity to me. the USA town with the highest average household income is here (Sammamish). and they own plenty of supercars, yet you only see them at the weekend Coffee and Cars. on sunny days. in the Seattle are. so not much. no it's not London, or Miami, or L.A. it's the eastside of the Seattle area. equities. Amazon, Microsoft, Costco, Boeing, Starbucks, T-Mobile and others all headquartered here. lots of equity, not many people.

but true reality is that an uber hifi system gets used, with rare exception supercars don't get used. observe how many miles are on the typical used supercar offered for sale. most have under 3000 miles, many under 500 or even under 100. the vast majority are garage queens.

and how many of those supercars are driven to their limits and pushed to perform? a tiny fraction. they are driven to dinner under 50 mph. uber hifi gear get's enjoyed as it's designed to be enjoyed.

 

[Kingrex]

FWIW, I have no problem with price accommodation for people in industry. I'm shipoing a panel this week to a social influencer at a nice discount. I have been offered price accommodations but never accepted as it was generally a product that even with a nice discount was more than I am willing to spend.

Elliot, I refer to accommodations as from the manufacturer, not a dealer. But I am well aware the dealer/reviewer dynamic. And long term loans are a completely different subject.

I whole heartedly agree and understand your point about who is the reviewer and what skills/listening space do they work. That goes back to my point about power to the room and the room itself. Total lack of consistency as well as skill and abilities. And I fully agree a perception is an opinion. The only facts in reviewing are measurement with tools. But those don't determin perceptions or sonic opinions.

Good point Mike about a reviewer probably getting a similar discount from any brand. So when they (BUY) they are getting what they want. And I never thought anyone would spend money on something they don't want. The big magic for the reviewer beyond pricing is having so much gear, in your room, to try for free before you buy. When they buy something, that does hit a bell for me.

Being a dealer sort of sucks. From what I have seen they have to buy gear to try it. And if they don't like it, your unloading something your heart is not behind.

Ssfas, what a bubble you live in. I'm not sure if I would enjoy it or not. I sort of like my small town now. I saw an old couple walk into a restaurant I was seated at and told they were full. A moment later another couple at a small table told the hostess to seat them with them. Total strangers. Pretty cool place I live.

 

[Tangram]

not quite that simple. no doubt print reviews are more valued by classic brick and mortar customers, and that brick and mortar manufacturers target and value print reviews more than other manufacturers. so yes that is all true. OTOH print review and reviewers are also part of the data points for members here, but many shades of degrees of value placed. likely most active members here value user feedback more generally than any reviews. then there are influencers/bloggers/on-line reviews too. all reviews present data points considered here these days. more skepticism toward print reviews by many members is true, but not all buy into that.

so the variation of members runs the gamut of review viewpoints. with many members evolving from one group of review viewpoints to the other groups over time. it's a process for many, but not all. some begin as brick and mortar/print review stalwarts, and remain so. of course; many here are connected to the industry in one form or another, so lots of agendas going on. in that way WBF might be unique.

some truth to 'oh what a tangled web we weave".

YMMV.

not the same at all. supercars are not used daily. hours and hours every day. uber systems are used and used and used. it's an active real thing. and readers of hifi magazines do commonly acquire higher end models of cover products. it's a real thing.

almost all super exotic automobiles are garage queens. and few readers of those magazines actually view themselves as candidates for them. so those supercars are rarely used to do what they were built to do.

but the audience for high end gear is much, much smaller and more narrow than car enthusiasts too. a fraction of the readership.

It’s exactly the same. Uber hifi equipment and uber cars are on magazine covers to sell the magazines. The vast, vast majority of readers will never own the stuff on the cover, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to read about it. Whether the car is driven or the stereo is listened to is completely beside the point.

 

[andromedaaudio]

It’s exactly the same. Uber hifi equipment and uber cars are on magazine covers to sell the magazines. The vast, vast majority of readers will never own the stuff on the cover, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to read about it. Whether the car is driven or the stereo is listened to is completely beside the point.

Its all relative , who decides what is Uber audio in the first place .
Uber in the sense of looking complicated / lots of carbon / nice machining .

 

[gleeds]

yes, there are very limited places where people show off. pose. but that is not reality for those cars.

some of the richest people in the world live in close proximity to me. the USA town with the highest average household income is here (Sammamish). and they own plenty of supercars, yet you only see them at the weekend Coffee and Cars. on sunny days. in the Seattle are. so not much. no it's not London, or Miami, or L.A. it's the eastside of the Seattle area. equities. Amazon, Microsoft, Costco, Boeing, Starbucks, T-Mobile and others all headquartered here. lots of equity, not many people.

but true reality is that an uber hifi system gets used, with rare exception supercars don't get used. observe how many miles are on the typical used supercar offered for sale. most have under 3000 miles, many under 500 or even under 100. the vast majority are garage queens.

and how many of those supercars are driven to their limits and pushed to perform? a tiny fraction. they are driven to dinner under 50 mph. uber hifi gear get's enjoyed as it's designed to be enjoyed.

Mike, watches, cars, expensive wine cellars, and high-end audio are NOT SO MUCH. We all have our passions. That is why we have a reasonably tight-knit community right here on WBF!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It’s exactly the same. Uber hifi equipment and uber cars are on magazine covers to sell the magazines. The vast, vast majority of readers will never own the stuff on the cover, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want to read about it. Whether the car is driven or the stereo is listened to is completely beside the point.

the typical serious audiophile is more likely to realistically aspire to the typical cover item for one of the hifi print magazines, than a typical car magazine supercar cover model.

only because (1) the hifi magazine cover piece is mostly not the most expensive gear, although sometimes it is. and (2) the typical serious audiophile is prepared to invest in some substantial (for them) gear.

i just grabbed 3 Stereophiles and 3 Absolute Sound's from the pile next to my listening chair. a couple of quite spendy pieces, but overall the items run the gamut of price points for the typical WBF member.

 

[gleeds]

FWIW, I have no problem with price accommodation for people in industry. I'm shipoing a panel this week to a social influencer at a nice discount. I have been offered price accommodations but never accepted as it was generally a product that even with a nice discount was more than I am willing to spend.

Elliot, I refer to accommodations as from the manufacturer, not a dealer. But I am well aware the dealer/reviewer dynamic. And long term loans are a completely different subject.

I whole heartedly agree and understand your point about who is the reviewer and what skills/listening space do they work. That goes back to my point about power to the room and the room itself. Total lack of consistency as well as skill and abilities. And I fully agree a perception is an opinion. The only facts in reviewing are measurement with tools. But those don't determin perceptions or sonic opinions.

Good point Mike about a reviewer probably getting a similar discount from any brand. So when they (BUY) they are getting what they want. And I never thought anyone would spend money on something they don't want. The big magic for the reviewer beyond pricing is having so much gear, in your room, to try for free before you buy. When they buy something, that does hit a bell for me.

Being a dealer sort of sucks. From what I have seen they have to buy gear to try it. And if they don't like it, your unloading something your heart is not behind.

Ssfas, what a bubble you live in. I'm not sure if I would enjoy it or not. I sort of like my small town now. I saw an old couple walk into a restaurant I was seated at and told they were full. A moment later another couple at a small table told the hostess to seat them with them. Total strangers. Pretty cool place I live.

We have very few dealers and like it that way! In our case, a dealer or, for that matter, an end-user never buys from us before they try.

I believe reviews can help create a shortlist and save time, even if the reviewer has questionable qualifications and allegiances. I'm not sure the last time I saw a review that said this component sucks. That said, I feel strongly that a reviewer should never publish a review on a deficient component (especially from a small firm), as it can be lethal. Instead, send it back and provide the manufacturer/designer constructive feedback. Dave McNair is one such gentleman; his qualifications as a top mastering engineer and a strong writer make his views all the more valuable.

 

[gleeds]

FWIW, I have no problem with price accommodation for people in industry. I'm shipoing a panel this week to a social influencer at a nice discount. I have been offered price accommodations but never accepted as it was generally a product that even with a nice discount was more than I am willing to spend.

Elliot, I refer to accommodations as from the manufacturer, not a dealer. But I am well aware the dealer/reviewer dynamic. And long term loans are a completely different subject.

I whole heartedly agree and understand your point about who is the reviewer and what skills/listening space do they work. That goes back to my point about power to the room and the room itself. Total lack of consistency as well as skill and abilities. And I fully agree a perception is an opinion. The only facts in reviewing are measurement with tools. But those don't determin perceptions or sonic opinions.

Good point Mike about a reviewer probably getting a similar discount from any brand. So when they (BUY) they are getting what they want. And I never thought anyone would spend money on something they don't want. The big magic for the reviewer beyond pricing is having so much gear, in your room, to try for free before you buy. When they buy something, that does hit a bell for me.

Being a dealer sort of sucks. From what I have seen they have to buy gear to try it. And if they don't like it, your unloading something your heart is not behind.

Ssfas, what a bubble you live in. I'm not sure if I would enjoy it or not. I sort of like my small town now. I saw an old couple walk into a restaurant I was seated at and told they were full. A moment later another couple at a small table told the hostess to seat them with them. Total strangers. Pretty cool place I live.

Without well-executed power, all that follows is compromised. Kingrex, your voice is critical, so keep it regular and vigorous, please

 

[Kingrex]

I miss stores/dealers. I loved going to stores when I was young. Stores was how I heard and bought my gear in high-school and college.

Reviewers that post here and elsewhere have clearly said they turn down performing a review if they don't like something for exactly the reasons you state. They also say they accept priduct for review because they heard it and like it and their publisher said run with it.

 

[stehno]

yes, there are very limited places where people show off. pose. but that is not reality for those cars.

some of the richest people in the world live in close proximity to me. the USA town with the highest average household income is here (Sammamish). and they own plenty of supercars, yet you only see them at the weekend Coffee and Cars. on sunny days. in the Seattle are. so not much. no it's not London, or Miami, or L.A. it's the eastside of the Seattle area. equities. Amazon, Microsoft, Costco, Boeing, Starbucks, T-Mobile and others all headquartered here. lots of equity, not many people.

but true reality is that an uber hifi system gets used, with rare exception supercars don't get used. observe how many miles are on the typical used supercar offered for sale. most have under 3000 miles, many under 500 or even under 100. the vast majority are garage queens.

and how many of those supercars are driven to their limits and pushed to perform? a tiny fraction. they are driven to dinner under 50 mph. uber hifi gear get's enjoyed as it's designed to be enjoyed.

Based on how many uber, hyper, sota-level, and/or presumably most systems are severely underutilized by performing closer to their base operational rather than closer to their optimal performance levels, I’d equate listening to such systems to driving an exotic sports car back and forth in the driveway or on a good day, driving 25 mph up and down the cul-de-sac.

Starting but certainly not ending with listening at volume levels significantly lower than the perceived live performance volume levels.

Instead of garage queens, listening room trophies perhaps?

 

[ssfas]

yes, there are very limited places where people show off. pose. but that is not reality for those cars.

some of the richest people in the world live in close proximity to me. the USA town with the highest average household income is here (Sammamish). and they own plenty of supercars, yet you only see them at the weekend Coffee and Cars. on sunny days. in the Seattle are. so not much. no it's not London, or Miami, or L.A. it's the eastside of the Seattle area. equities. Amazon, Microsoft, Costco, Boeing, Starbucks, T-Mobile and others all headquartered here. lots of equity, not many people.

but true reality is that an uber hifi system gets used, with rare exception supercars don't get used. observe how many miles are on the typical used supercar offered for sale. most have under 3000 miles, many under 500 or even under 100. the vast majority are garage queens.

and how many of those supercars are driven to their limits and pushed to perform? a tiny fraction. they are driven to dinner under 50 mph. uber hifi gear get's enjoyed as it's designed to be enjoyed.

I think I agree with @stenho that purveyors of uber audio and supercars couldn't care less what you do with it, you can stick it in a glass box and stare at it all day without plugging it in or driving it, as long as you come back and buy the next upgrade.

From the pictures I posted elsewhere, I'm sure the McLaren owners get far more personal satisfaction from posing in their supercar than driving it at speed.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Starting but certainly not ending with listening at volume levels significantly lower than the perceived live performance volume levels.

for a frequent daily listener, listening to hifi at actual live performance SPL levels for the majority of music would not last long. no matter how sorted the system. and we see many aged music lovers who once enjoyed great hearing in their youth, but no longer have much of it.

so hopefully our systems can be involving and lively at moderate SPL levels, which is an attribute of the best, most sorted, systems. once in a while we push it a little to get closer to 'live'. we all have our own views on how our systems do at this.

and we do the best we can to continue to enjoy the music we love and have it fill our lives we are currently living in.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

purveyors of supercars couldn't care less what you do with it, you can stick it in a glass box and stare at it all day without driving it, as long as you come back and buy the next.......

I'm sure the McLaren owners get far more personal satisfaction from posing in their supercar

very sad but true.

than driving it at speed.

most have zero idea about what driving it 'at speed' might be. uber hifi gear owners OTOH do know about what their gear can do.

 

[Elliot G.]

very sad but true.

most have zero idea about what driving it 'at speed' might be. uber hifi gear owners OTOH do know about what their gear can do.

Having worked in my youth at a Ferrari dealer and gone to Bridgehampton on Ferrari events all I can say is virtually none of the owners put thier cars on the track. They had all the approved gear, trailors, Women and stuff but the cars were hardly driven. Unlike audio owners are afraid of the car, afraid of the possibility of damaging the car and the fear to show anyone that they don't really know how to use it. This is not all of course but it did cover many I saw. The robb report has tons of exotics with little or no mileage on cars. Personally I dont get it but then again I can't buy one either.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Having worked in my youth at a Ferrari dealer and gone to Bridgehampton on Ferrari events all I can say is virtually none of the owners put thier cars on the track. They had all the approved gear, trailors, Women and stuff but the cars were hardly driven. Unlike audi othey are afraid of the car, afraid of the possibility of damaging the car and the fear to show anyone that they don't really know how to use it. This is not all of course but it did cover many I saw. The robb report has tons of exotics with little or no mileage on cars. Personally I dont get it but then again I can't buy one either.

a rich guy problem.

 

[Robh3606]

I miss stores/dealers. I loved going to stores when I was young. Stores was how I heard and bought my gear in high-school and college.

You and me both! Lot of good memories from the local shops where you could bring in a new record and spin it on different systems.

Rob

 

[gleeds]

I think I agree with @stenho that purveyors of uber audio and supercars couldn't care less what you do with it, you can stick it in a glass box and stare at it all day without plugging it in or driving it, as long as you come back and buy the next upgrade.

From the pictures I posted elsewhere, I'm sure the McLaren owners get far more personal satisfaction from posing in their supercar than driving it at speed.

I'm sorry to disagree. That is a vast generalization and a put-down to McLaren and other supercar owners. Undoubtedly, many view it as a status symbol, but others genuinely love cars and the driving experience they provide the same way we love our audio gear.

 

[gleeds]

a rich guy problem.

Yes, but can they shoot close to their age on the golf course like you can

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes, but can they shoot close to their age on the golf course like you can

not played in many, many years. still a big golf fan though.

Elliot is the guy shooting his age.

 

[Elliot G.]

You and me both! Lot of good memories from the local shops where you could bring in a new record and spin it on different systems.

Rob

Audio is an experience based business. I loved having a big store with lots of gear and rooms. These dealers were how most of us learned