What is a reviewer?

[tima]

To go further off-topic ... I do enjoy watching professionally made videos of orchestras performing classical music on tv with the Sonos and its sub.

I will recommend to both of you (@Mike Lavigne and @Ron Resnick ) a Blu-ray disc of John Williams with the Berlin Philharmonic playing his own music. A good chunk of it is Star Wars soundtrack music (neo-Wagner-lite) and Indiana Jones. I suggest it not for the music or as a listening experience per se (although it is enjoyable) but for its educational and appreciation value for learning about an orchestra, how a conductor controls the orchestra and for seeing/hearing up-close individual musicians and sections of musicians play their instruments.

 

[Joe Whip]

The John Williams Live in Vienna is spectacular as well. I have watched that numerous times on my 83 inch Sony OLED with my Atmos system. Smaller room so the picture takes up most of the front wall. The picture is excellent with a fantastic Atmos mix. I love watching how musicians interact. Especially jazz musicians in clubs. Fascinating to watch the very subtle visual clues they give each other.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

To go further off-topic ... I do enjoy watching professionally made videos of orchestras performing classical music on tv with the Sonos and its sub.

I will recommend to both of you (@Mike Lavigne and @Ron Resnick ) a Blu-ray disc of John Williams with the Berlin Philharmonic playing his own music. A good chunk of it is Star Wars soundtrack music (neo-Wagner-lite) and Indiana Jones. I suggest it not for the music or as a listening experience per se (although it is enjoyable) but for its educational and appreciation value for learning about an orchestra, how a conductor controls the orchestra and for seeing/hearing up-close individual musicians and sections of musicians play their instruments.

i do listen to that John Williams recording in high rez 2 channel regularly; i do very much enjoy 2 channel soundtrack music. my 2 channel room and source have their attributes which exceed the multi-channel, but the multi-channel (JVC Laser 4k 120" diag 2:35 screen/Trinnov Dolby Atmos 9.3.6 w/3 Funk Audio 18.0 subs) has it's own qualities. i have not tried that particular disc though. mostly use Kaleidiscape. but i might try it on the Oppo, thanks.

 

[Tangram]

What is a reviewer? Someone who is paid to talk about equipment. Pretty simple.

The reason reviewers get a bad rap here is because WBF members aren’t generally the target audience. Sure, magazines review uber gear, but that’s to sell magazines, not the uber gear. It’s no different than Ferraris constantly gracing the cover of Road and Track.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What is a reviewer? Someone who is paid to talk about equipment. Pretty simple.

The reason reviewers get a bad rap here is because WBF members aren’t generally the target audience. Sure, magazines review uber gear, but that’s to sell magazines, not the uber gear.

not quite that simple. no doubt print reviews are more valued by classic brick and mortar customers, and that brick and mortar manufacturers target and value print reviews more than other manufacturers. so yes that is all true. OTOH print review and reviewers are also part of the data points for members here, but many shades of degrees of value placed. likely most active members here value user feedback more generally than any reviews. then there are influencers/bloggers/on-line reviews too. all reviews present data points considered here these days. more skepticism toward print reviews by many members is true, but not all buy into that.

so the variation of members runs the gamut of review viewpoints. with many members evolving from one group of review viewpoints to the other groups over time. it's a process for many, but not all. some begin as brick and mortar/print review stalwarts, and remain so. of course; many here are connected to the industry in one form or another, so lots of agendas going on. in that way WBF might be unique.

some truth to 'oh what a tangled web we weave".

YMMV.

It’s no different than Ferraris constantly gracing the cover of Road and Track.

not the same at all. supercars are not used daily. hours and hours every day. uber systems are used and used and used. it's an active real thing. and readers of hifi magazines do commonly acquire higher end models of cover products. it's a real thing.

almost all super exotic automobiles are garage queens. and few readers of those magazines actually view themselves as candidates for them. so those supercars are rarely used to do what they were built to do.

but the audience for high end gear is much, much smaller and more narrow than car enthusiasts too. a fraction of the readership.

 

[bonzo75]

To go further off-topic ... I do enjoy watching professionally made videos of orchestras performing classical music on tv with the Sonos and its sub.

I will recommend to both of you (@Mike Lavigne and @Ron Resnick ) a Blu-ray disc of John Williams with the Berlin Philharmonic playing his own music. A good chunk of it is Star Wars soundtrack music (neo-Wagner-lite) and Indiana Jones. I suggest it not for the music or as a listening experience per se (although it is enjoyable) but for its educational and appreciation value for learning about an orchestra, how a conductor controls the orchestra and for seeing/hearing up-close individual musicians and sections of musicians play their instruments.

Blu rays of Abbado doing Mahler are also great, with the Lucerne. Another extremely enjoyable MCH disc performance is the Met doing Carmen.

 

[Elliot G.]

What is a reviewer? Someone who is paid to talk about equipment. Pretty simple.

The reason reviewers get a bad rap here is because WBF members aren’t generally the target audience. Sure, magazines review uber gear, but that’s to sell magazines, not the uber gear. It’s no different than Ferraris constantly gracing the cover of Road and Track.

without trying to be adversarial that is an incredibly low bar. So in your mind anyone with an opinion and a typewriter is a reviewer. No qualifications or credibility required. The total lack of expertise that is expected in almost everything in our world to me is frightening. The other part is they have no accountability or responsibilty and they go unchallenged.
Ferrari is a world wide brand and has a budget greater than probably the entire audio Industry. This is not the same and BTW they do criticize cars even Ferrari gets kicked on occasion.

 

[morricab]

without trying to be adversarial that is an incredibly low bar. So in your mind anyone with an opinion and a typewriter is a reviewer. No qualifications or credibility required. The total lack of expertise that is expected in almost everything in our world to me is frightening. The other part is they have no accountability or responsibilty and they go unchallenged.
Ferrari is a world wide brand and has a budget greater than probably the entire audio Industry. This is not the same and BTW they do criticize cars even Ferrari gets kicked on occasion.

You missed a crucial point…getting PAID to provide your opinion.

 

[Elliot G.]

You missed a crucial point…getting PAID to provide your opinion.

no I didnt. They are all getting paid at some level online or in print. Thats what a "reviewer" is , the others are hobbiests

 

[morricab]

I think that perhaps we should make a divide between a reporter and a reviewer/critic. Most "reviews" are mostly reports and some do have critical content and comparisions. The comparisions is the part that has no consistency except to that single writer and is not shared platform wide. In my mind that is a serious flaw because then the reader is left to choose the opinion that he or she likes or agrees with rather than have some consistent checkpoints to base comparisions or trying to determine ratings that mean something. I think we all know why this is but that part goes unspoken.
So for example you like RH and agree with him but in the same magazine JV is saying something completely different
So are they both right? both wrong? one right the other wrong?

no I didnt

You made no mention of that point and it was a key difference to just “anyone with a typewriter “ that you stated.

 

[Elliot G.]

What most call reviews I would call reports.

 

[Elliot G.]

You made no mention of that point and it was a key difference to just “anyone with a typewriter “ that you stated.

sorry if I was unclear but I was responding to that other persons statement. Anyone with a typewriter I and you would never see. This is a semantic arguement not my point. we just went through this the other day with the poster on the Wilson XVX quoting a reviewer as if he was the true voice of all audio, rather than he was one person's opinion backed by manufacturer marketing points that were reported in this publication, Thsi report is not supported by other major reviewers in that same publication and in fact others propose something entirely different as the audio truth. Just to be clear someone writing about audio that isnt getting paid is a hobbiest and I do not take that as a reviewer, perhaps you might , I don't know. To be even clearer when you write stuff I don't consider that to be anything but your opinion.

 

[Kingrex]

Elliot, That's not what I have been told. But I could have been mislead to hide the truth. I have never hear 50%. I have heard 40%. And per Elliots comment, how many are worth that much.

But what does it all have to do with what is a reviewer. Are people implying reviewers are on the take and lie to get discounted products. Why would they pay anything for stuff they don't like. Or are some just sore that people who are intrinsically embedded in the industry would be treated better than they are.

 

[Robh3606]

In both cases the visual elements lead to a different type of experience than does music alone. Imo the psycho-acoustic aspects of listening to a stereo, come more to the forefront as my mind engages in the absence of visuals. Contra a movie or music video, my mind is not led to combine music and visual and is left free to roam. Just as while reading fiction my mind is free to create the scenes and characters without being led beyond the words on the page.

Hello tima

Do a lot of live shows in small venues, get there at doors and like it right up front. Not always the best sound with the venue mains typically overhead and sometimes behind. Lot's of times the closest stage monitor or guitar amp more present than the house system

I am there more for the experience as live music has no comparisons in my mind. It's great get to say hello grab a setlist every once in a while and just get lost in the performance overall sight and sound.

We are opposites I think. I find the visuals more engaging as it brings me closer to a live experience. Don't get me wrong I completely enjoy listening via stereo but do agree they are different in their own rights and live, stereo or HT all have there place

Enjoy!

Rob

 

[ssfas]

not quite that simple. no doubt print reviews are more valued by classic brick and mortar customers, and that brick and mortar manufacturers target and value print reviews more than other manufacturers. so yes that is all true. OTOH print review and reviewers are also part of the data points for members here, but many shades of degrees of value placed. likely most active members here value user feedback more generally than any reviews. then there are influencers/bloggers/on-line reviews too. all reviews present data points considered here these days. more skepticism toward print reviews by many members is true, but not all buy into that.



not the same at all. supercars are not used daily. hours and hours every day. uber systems are used and used and used. it's an active real thing. and readers of hifi magazines do commonly acquire higher end models of cover products. it's a real thing.

almost all super exotic automobiles are garage queens. and few readers of those magazines actually view themselves as candidates for them. so those supercars are rarely used to do what they were built to do.

but the audience for high end gear is much, much smaller and more narrow than car enthusiasts too. a fraction of the readership.

WhatHiFi (brick and mortar) print reviewers are selling subscriptions and advertising. User feedback I presume contains a large dose of buyer validation bias. Video ranters are selling clicks.

There may not be many supercars in your neck of the woods, in these parts we're falling over them. I know plenty of people who drive them daily, but only two people with stereo systems, only one of which is "uber". I was waiting for the wife one day when this topic arose elsewhere and I spotted perhaps 20 or more $1m+ cars and probably well over 100 in the $200,000+ range. That was in about 10 minutes. They were all being driven or parked on the street. You can see a few here if you scroll. There is a Works Aston Martin bumper to bumper with a $5m McLaren, on the street.

We also love cars

What the f is this ? People taking pictures

forum.psaudio.com

So your comment is just another example of bias, presumably based on where you live, but bias all the same because we all have a far more limited perspective than we might hope or like to admit.

 

[Elliot G.]

Elliot, That's not what I have been told. But I could have been mislead to hide the truth. I have never hear 50%. I have heard 40%. And per Elliots comment, how many are worth that much.

But what does it all have to do with what is a reviewer. Are people implying reviewers are on the take and lie to get free products. Why would they pay anything for stuff they don't like. Or are some just sore that people who are intrinsically embedded in the industry would be treated better than they are.

Sorry Rex but accomodations are what they are and what was told to you is not fact. I dont make the rules and as a distributor I can do whatever I choose that would be my choice. FYI have never done that, not that it matters. The top guys don't pay at all they have extended long term loans/gifts? The other guys need accomodations so that they have something to write about and with to write about other items loaned or purchased.
I personally don't care about any of the purchased gear or maybe even the loans. I do care about the lack of direction, expertise, consistency, and knowledge. It makes no sense to me that even a platofrm /publication has no accountability or consensus on what is good. It rather has a bunch of different opinions that are specific to one individual who may or may not have any more knowledge that the readers.
Here is one example that I dealt with. I wanted to get one of my speakers reviewed back when I started. I needed some exposure and wanted to get the brand out there. This is very common practice as most of us do not have huge marketing budgets or even the expertise to knw whats the best course. I contacted a magazine. I wanted the review to be done by someone I knew and that the readers would know. I heard back a few weeks later from someone I never heard of. I asked him some questions about his room and what he would be using to write the review. I asked where he was located and about his back ground. I think these wer fair questions to ask someone that wanted me to send them a 70k pair of speakers for free for months.
His answers shocked me.He was going to review them in his family room, he had no idea what he would use to review them that would be up to what the publication sent him and he had never owned or used a pair of speakers that were over 10k ever. I politely declined.
Make of this as you want. To me I dont call that a reviewer yet the magazine did.

 

[ssfas]

sorry if I was unclear but I was responding to that other persons statement. Anyone with a typewriter I and you would never see. This is a semantic arguement not my point. we just went through this the other day with the poster on the Wilson XVX quoting a reviewer as if he was the true voice of all audio, rather than he was one person's opinion backed by manufacturer marketing points that were reported in this publication, Thsi report is not supported by other major reviewers in that same publication and in fact others propose something entirely different as the audio truth. Just to be clear someone writing about audio that isnt getting paid is a hobbiest and I do not take that as a reviewer, perhaps you might , I don't know. To be even clearer when you write stuff I don't consider that to be anything but your opinion.

Just because people get paid to do stuff, doesn't mean they are any good at it. I can give you a list (plumbers, builders, as well as audio scribes).

The true experts are probably those that have walked the walk, i.e. other engineers, who can tell a good design from bad, or professional classical/jazz musicians, who know what realistic acoustic sound reproduction is. I've mentioned one or two of these, but they are rare. They usually have better things to do, like designing things or playing music.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Elliot, That's not what I have been told. But I could have been mislead to hide the truth. I have never hear 50%. I have heard 40%. And per Elliots comment, how many are worth that much.

But what does it all have to do with what is a reviewer. Are people implying reviewers are on the take and lie to get free products. Why would they pay anything for stuff they don't like. Or are some just sore that people who are intrinsically embedded in the industry would be treated better than they are.

the actual price a reviewer is out of pocket is not the issue. because it's should be relatively the same for each product choice. whether the discount off retail is 40% or 50% or more, whatever the number is keeps the choice the same as the retail choice. but i do realize the idea of accommodation prices for reviewers messes with people's heads and some can't get past it. sigh.

an important point is what happens with accommodation sales to reviewers. if a particular reviewer has stature enough (not all do) to qualify for an accommodation sale price, then that reviewer could choose what product they might prefer. so the relative value of one product to another would end up being similar to retail customers and the preference not the price would cause motivation for a particular product, to mimic that of a retail customer. trying to reduce the credibility of reviewers based on accommodation sales opportunities is just a myth. the cynicism is not based on how things work.

reviewing and the time and energy it takes does come with perks. unless one wants to do that work, then we should respect that is a choice we could all make. unless you want to (1) pay your dues to get hired as a reviewer, (2) do the work to review stuff, and (3) tolerate all the negativity.

a case can be made that the choices at accommodation price are not unlimited. and i do think real abuses do occur with long term loans of gear. that part can/does blur results. in those situations the reader has to make the call on how they interpret the reviews.

 

[Robh3606]

A good chunk of it is Star Wars soundtrack music (neo-Wagner-lite) and Indiana Jones.

And then there is this!

Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

Just because people get paid to do stuff, doesn't mean they are any good at it. I can give you a list (plumbers, builders, as well as audio scribes).

The true experts are probably those that have walked the walk, i.e. other engineers, who can tell a good design from bad, or professional classical/jazz musicians, who know what realistic acoustic sound reproduction is. I've mentioned one or two of these, but they are rare. They usually have better things to do, like designing things or playing music.

I agree that is my point. All experts have to walk to the walk. If you come here and don't like what I have you wont buy it. These are obvious results. People who have never heard a "reviewers" system, or to be honest never heard a truly great system do not have the experience to understand what they don't know. This is a life fact not just an audio discussion. How would you know great food if youi never had any? How would you know what a great guitarist sounds like if you never heard one? One thing I dont agree with you musicians are part of the music and hear sound from a very different perspective than those in the audience. I am in the audience I am not sitting within the group or orchestra and the instruments are in front of me not around me. These people have different skill sets for sure but only if they are listening from the audioence can they understand what a audio system does.