What is a reviewer?

[Kingrex]

The comment was about live music as a reference being important for the reviewer. I made no mention of genre.

I did make a comment about genera because the type of live music is very important. Classicsl and jazz in a small setting.is unamplified. Once a PA takes over and does the heavy lifting, sending the music to the crowd, the sonic character of the instruments is significantly altered. So, if someone were to dislike or seldom to never play jazz and classical, then this idea a live event as a baseline loose relavence to me.

 

[Robh3606]

7 channel stereo

Hello

The rears and center make a big difference. Running All Stereo you won't get the steering correct from a multichannel source. So was it a Stereo source playing All Stereo? You will get the envelopment not sure on the bass management.

Rob

 

[JiminGa]

Kingrex that seems light. I can get 20% frequently. Occasionally 30%. Cables 50%. I would imagine at least 40%.

 

[PeterA]

I did make a comment about genera because the type of live music is very important. Classicsl and jazz in a small setting.is unamplified. Once a PA takes over and does the heavy lifting, sending the music to the crowd, the sonic character of the instruments is significantly altered. So, if someone were to dislike or seldom to never play jazz and classical, then this idea a live event as a baseline loose relavence to me.

King, are you suggesting that reviewers do not need to listen to live music, or even that they can not know what instruments sound like because the important genre amplifies and alters the sound anyway? Help me to understand your point as it applies to reviewers.

 

[Kingrex]

I read your comments several times and I'm not sure I undestand them in the way you meant them. But that's okay.

My sense of what you're saying is that a review is more valuable to you if you can relate to the review system in terms of gear you have or know, that the room, according to the reviewer, - a room you may not know but maybe you do -- is 'mature' and the system stable, and that the reviewer uses analog pressings ... here I'm guessing ... that you know and gauge of sufficient merit. My general impression is that what you find of value in audio assessment is how it is relevant to you.

Fwiw, I do not understand the notion of 'digital media references' as hardware. I think the notion of recording quality and music capable of demonstrating the system and review component would be format independent. But this is about your views not mine.

Be that as it may - Thanks for following up on my question.

This is a good point. There is a lot of talk of the reviewer, but less about who is digesting the review. Something I am touching on when naming reviewers of $500 to $5000 gear. Most hear scoff.at such equipment. But thats where the units are sold in the 10s of thousands.

 

[Kingrex]

Kingrex that seems light. I can get 20% frequently. Occasionally 30%. Cables 50%. I would imagine at least 40%.

There you go. Your words 20% to 30%. I get offered the same. If you have no industry affiliation, your getting a close out that is close to dealer pricing.

 

[JiminGa]

Hopefully one’s understanding of what electrified rock/ pop etc. sounds like is not limited to a venues crappy PA or live mix. Hopefully if you are a reviewer you’ve spent countless hours listening up close and personal to practice sessions, recording sessions or maybe your buddies Stratocaster, fender or high hat. Maybe even hitting a Tom Tom yourself to hear and feel it so that you know what it sounds like. This can help distinguish between a poor recording and poor reproduction of that recording. Anyone who is going to declare that a speaker does this well or that well vs another speaker must first have mastery of all the constituent parts that lead to an educated opinion.

 

[Kingrex]

King, are you suggesting that reviewers do not need to listen to live music, or even that they can not know what instruments sound like because the important genre amplifies and alters the sound anyway? Help me to understand your point as it applies to reviewers.

Rex is better than King. Kingrex is from the old Italian ladies in the neighborhood pinching my cheak and saying, did you know your name means king in Latin.

I am saying, a reviewer can listen to and refer to live unamplified all they want. But a reviewers pay comes from the audience reading or watching the reviewers content. If the audience cares not for live, unamplified music, then it means nothing to the audience. And even the notion that a reviewer is only serious if they have a mega system is skewed to me as I believe the vast bulk of sales of audio equipment happen in the hundred to low thousands range. I see it as an artificially imposed constraint to imply reviews are pertaining to multi thousand $$$ products. Does that make more sense?

 

[JiminGa]

Rex I get that but in understanding the strengths and weaknesses of any given piece of equipment after listening to it you first have understand exactly what it should be reproducing. The delta is error. Now not all systems need to be geared towards accuracy. They could be designed to create a warm inviting sound or an overly huge sound stage or to exaggerate mid bass output. The reviewer should note this and recommend it to those seeking this qualities. Does that make sense

 

[Robh3606]

They could be designed to create a warm inviting sound or an overly huge sound stage or to exaggerate mid bass output.

OK but what is he hearing? An actual design goal or say, assuming speakers, the speakers and the interaction with his room? You need more than just subjective opinions.

Rob

 

[JiminGa]

Agree Rob

 

[ssfas]

I did make a comment about genera because the type of live music is very important. Classicsl and jazz in a small setting.is unamplified. Once a PA takes over and does the heavy lifting, sending the music to the crowd, the sonic character of the instruments is significantly altered. So, if someone were to dislike or seldom to never play jazz and classical, then this idea a live event as a baseline loose relavence to me.

You will find that classical and jazz recordings are normally made in medium to large halls, that can easily accommodate a full orchestra, even if it is a solo recording. See for example the Henry Wood Hall, a favourite from any world-class musicians for about 70 years.

I have been to some live shows, Mavis Staples live in London, for example, that was subsequently released as an album. The resulting album sound is nothing like the amplified sound during the performance because the recording is taken from the microphone feed. In that example the sound quality heard by the audience was dreadful, whereas the album sound is OK.

 

[tima]

Kingrex that seems light. I can get 20% frequently. Occasionally 30%. Cables 50%. I would imagine at least 40%.

That's because the manufacturer or distributor sets the msrp with the idea of discounting already baked in. A high margin potential can be addictve.

 

[JiminGa]

Ok Tima what do you reckon is a typical “reviewer accommodation” discount percentage on a pair of speakers?

 

[Balle Clorin]

Is it Live or is it Hifi?
Nice to have the reference nearby,,
I get it right every time ,,,also well before I enter , (also with the speakers pulled out to listening positions )
Reproducing a large real instrument is hard to do. It would be fun to let a reviewer listen in both rooms blindfolded and read the following review, will the live instrument get negative criticism. It is not a Steinway, and even I do her a clearly the difference between different pianos.

 

[Kingrex]

Ok Tima what do you reckon is a typical “reviewer accommodation” discount percentage on a pair of speakers?

Jim. Revewers don't get some magic insane low price. They don't get a $100,000 set of speakers for $20k or $30k. I have been told by very well hnow reviewers what they pay for speakers. And it falls near the numbers I quoted. But they love the equipment and feel they had to have it. So they pay a very large sum to own it. Revewers put out copious large amounts of money for good equipment. Its not a secret racket.

Torus whick I am a distributor for gave me a personal unit for my own use. And that fell in the percentage I quoted.

Cables may be different. I hear intriguing stories about cables and reviewers that are pretty salacious.

You know what the magic treatment a reviewer gets from his job. The opportunity to have lots of very nice equipment in their room, set up by the manufacturer. They get.to hear lots of stuff and make a very informed decision on what actually works best and sounds best for them, in their room. Something non of us get to do. We have to buy it. And if you want to try it with the option of returning it for your money back, your paying list price. If you got 20% off. Thats a final sale. No returns. You own it. Doesn't work in your room. Tough luck. Sell it for 50% off and move on.

 

[Elliot G.]

I would guess most people with a stereo that cost $20K or more don't listen to classical or jazz. So live music to them is a whole lot different than live music to you. I am making an assumption that live to you is a symphony or something as such. Live to most people is a club atmosphere or stadium. Not the same.

I dont agree with you at all. Secondly in stadiums or clubs the music you are listening to is truly a remixed stereo system not what I would call live exactly. SOmeone playing a guitar through a equalized PA system is one of those things that then becomes a combination of factors not just the player and the instrument. When I talk about live for me its live unamplified. This can be any genre but not played through a gigantic PA system is not live exactly.

 

[Elliot G.]

My sense is that Elliot continues to be frustrated by reviewers who can make or break a new product even though they have no formal training or certification from any recognized sanctioning body or board.

I agree with him if this is his thinking. Reviewers are, for the most part, just enthusiasts with the confidence to go on record with their personal opinions. Even the guys who measure things give their opinions about what the measurements mean.

Elliot has a LOT OF SKIN in the game. I understand his frustration. People who really are Nobodies pick apart and make proclamations about 6 figure speakers … and the sheep/lemmings quote them as authorities.

I would like to think that anyone with pockets deep enough for high end purchases will listen rather than read before pulling the trigger. But in some cases, especially among the uber wealthy, they don’t.

There is no way of fixing this except by creating an official “audio component review board” where membership requires formal training and certification. I don’t see it happening… but Elliot may be in the position to try to create such an entity. I would expect that manufacturers and importers might get behind it.

I think that you get a sense of some of what I feel but not all of it. I don't believe today that reviewers really make or break a product but rather are marketing plus. They certainly don't break anything since there are never truly bad reviews. If I am frustrated it is with the simple parts that no one wants to discuss. There are no standards, no accountability and no true understanding of the reviews based on actual listening. What I mean by that is if you came and listened to my system and loved it then what I say and my opinions are of value to you. If you came and hated it then my opinions would really have very little weight. Virtually none of the readers of reviews hear a "reviewers system. So what reviewer A says has to be taken with some care. The distortion of words especially in audio has to me made much of what is written unintelligible. My serious audio friends and I , people who do have world class set ups and are serious about music and sound, discuss this frequently. Most of us have heard systems in reviewer spaces.
When I go somewhere and listen to a system and its truly mediocre I have to wonder what the fuss is all about. Most shows are totally mediocre. This is not a real fault it is just time and space issues but that is only part of the story. Many just can't make the transition from a bunch of stuff to a musical playback system of high integrity. Different skill sets. please do not for get that. Most of us enjoy things that WE can't do ourselves, this is true in Audio but ego prevents the acceptance of it. Experience is another factor. YOu may love product A. Product A is the best product you have owned that however does not mean that product A is the best!
I dont know that creaing a review board is the answer but I do find it quite strange that many reviewers don't listen to what other reviewers in the same organization have and that within these organizations there arent clear standards of somekind . For example , nope better not I have enough haters already in the review world.
Let me end with this the playing field is NOT level.

 

[OrigTweaker]

Posting about Steve Guttenberg puts you in an unserious category. He sold audio equipment at retail, so I’ve written him off. Not interested in the opinions of anyone who ever sold audio equipment in a retail store.

Then please ignore anything I might say. 20 years in retail: Pacific Stereo 1976-80, Video Adventure 1980-96

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Then please ignore anything I might say. 20 years in retail: Pacific Stereo 1976-80, Video Adventure 1980-96

Or for that matter 95% of the reviewers in the media space, as some point they all sold equipment either retail or through distribution.