Ah then, there's little I can disagree with there. I always need to have an upgrade path ahead of me...
What is the correlation b/w measurements and good sound?
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Ah then, there's little I can disagree with there. I always need to have an upgrade path ahead of me...
yes; I imagine you are curious about that. and when you do go down that road, you will also need to treat reflective surfaces too to allow the bass articulation to work right.
for now; enjoy the simplicity and intimacy of your approach.
Right, I imagined that as I go lower in frequency the room effect is going to rear its head. As for now I am getting plenty of satisfaction from my system.
Well, from my perspective how it works is that my ear/brain can digest both the direct sound, and the room reflections in the particular listening space that the playback system finds itself, and sort that them out. But this is only possible if the direct sound is low enough in all manner of distortions that can befuddle the brain; if there are too many artifacts then the totality of the sound impacting is too confused, and it becomes impossible to listen to as the volume rises. What I enjoy is that the perceived intensity of the musical experience just increases as the volume goes up, it doesn't become muddled or raucous - I have been amused on many occasions by my better half, Bev, insisting that I increase the volume, and I have to say to her, sorry, the foot's flat to the floor already!
Like Richard, opus112, I don't get the very, very low bass happening so the room doesn't overload on that - but I don't feel I'm missing out on anything by not hearing those frequencies. And a fairly recent experience listening to an enthusiast's home system who has twin extremely heavy, sealed subwoofers, carefully EQ'd with a DEQX unit, showed me that there was very little subjectively that I had been missing from my own setups.
What I look for is that the drivers have to become truly invisible - a blindfold on, and it becomes impossible to point to where the sound is being produced, even when standing very close to the speakers.
Like Richard, opus112, I don't get the very, very low bass happening so the room doesn't overload on that - but I don't feel I'm missing out on anything by not hearing those frequencies. And a fairly recent experience listening to an enthusiast's home system who has twin extremely heavy, sealed subwoofers, carefully EQ'd with a DEQX unit, showed me that there was very little subjectively that I had been missing from my own setups.
What I look for is that the drivers have to become truly invisible - a blindfold on, and it becomes impossible to point to where the sound is being produced, even when standing very close to the speakers.
Noise has a lot to do with hearing the bass. It's problematic when it's mostly inaudible frequencies and comes out too soft despite SPL because it won't have the effect on anything you can hear (floor, walls, wood, furniture, your chest, etc).
A couple of evaluation CDs I use is the Sydney Opera House Organ played by Peter Hurford, and ZZ Top's Afterburner - I have yet to hear another system get the emphasis and complexity of the bass harmonics right on the first, and the sheer gut wrenching intensity of the second come over as well as I've managed at times - a system has to do these sort of things well to properly create the illusion of realistic sound.
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That is an interesting way of describing something. So you are observing the luminous ball of sound rather than being inside of it. This seems different from being washed over by the sound or being surrounded by it.
Can this sense of reproduced sound be measured? If so, how?
EDIT: I refer to something called Presence. Does the system create a believable facsimile of a live performance in the room and is there a distinction between the instruments making the sound and the sound filling the room? The really good systems that I have heard can do this. Other systems can not. Since this is in the measurement forum, and the thread is about the correlation between measurements and good sound, how is Presence measured?
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So, "The Measurement Based Audio Forum" has now become the "Subjective Based Flowery Prose Audio Forum". Awesome. "Luminous balls" indeed...
Probably relates to the measurable SPLs being produced - low volume gives you "ball of sound" in the distance; high volume, "washed over, surrounded by" effect.
The measurement I use is subjective - when the drivers become truly invisible, then the "big sound" is in the room ....
Interesting. I have heard super loud big systems that still presented a picture of the performance at a distance in front of me in a two dimensional way. I have heard extremely palpable, three dimensional, room filling sound at low volume from a handful of systems that were well integrated with the rooms. I know it when I hear it, but I want to know more. How can we measure and therefore predict from the measurements whether or not a system will be able to produce this sense of Presence?
How are soundstage width, depth and height measured?
What are the audible qualities from an audio system that people think can still not be measured adequately enough to predict performance from a system without actually listening to it?
Ahh, there's the rub ... I would be pleased to be able to point to some specific number producing device, but I haven't found it yet. And everything I've read says no-one else has a handle on it either, in the measurement sense.
As a start there needs to be an ability to measure levels of low level distortion, noise modulation, or whatever one wants to call it. Plus, the capability of the system as a whole to be resistant to interference effects, wherever they originate. And, how capable the rig is of operating at higher volume levels without marked audible degradation. Nail those three, and one's a long way towards soundstage size and presence ...
As a start there needs to be an ability to measure levels of low level distortion, noise modulation, or whatever one wants to call it. Plus, the capability of the system as a whole to be resistant to interference effects, wherever they originate. And, how capable the rig is of operating at higher volume levels without marked audible degradation. Nail those three, and one's a long way towards soundstage size and presence ...
Low distortion and a lack of power compression is key to achieve "high fidelity" in the true sense of the term. How anyone can claim that their two-way 86db monitors with a 6" woofer and a dome tweeter is "hi-fi" is beyond me.
The laws of science apply even if you've paid a boatload of money.
The laws of science apply even if you've paid a boatload of money.
The thread is about the correlation between measurements and good sound. How they correlate in the perception of presence and believability in my system is a bit beyond me too. That is why I am asking about what specific measurements can be used to predict what I, and others, are hearing from my inefficient, and rather small monitors, and it is why I am on this thread.
I don't think money has much to do with it specifically, except that rigid, low distortion speaker cabinets and high resolution drivers and crossovers do tend to cost more that those less able.
I happen to think that achieving a sense of presence from an audio system has a lot to do with the right speaker/listener/room relationship. And for this, measurements are certainly critical.
EDIT: By measurements I mean toe in angle, tweeter distance to listener, how symmetric and equally spaced the speaker are to the listener, tilt angle, seating height, etc. Measurements are also essential for repeating results so they must be recorded. A laser measuring and pointing device is a great tool for precision, but ears get one close and then can be used for progress and confirmation. This is basically all laid out in Jim Smith's excellent book, Get Better Sound.
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IME this is not the case - I've found that a system when correctly working always has a "presence", irrespective of how correct or incorrect the room is, and where the listener happens to be - next to speakers or at the other end of the house.
How it can be "measured" is by directly analysing what is emerging from the speaker drivers, say the classic metre directly in front of one. I use my ears for this type of measuring, and what I listen for are artifacts that obviously are not part of the recording - eliminate those incorrect audible additions, and then the system has "presence", automatically - it's a process I've used over and over again, because it always works ...
I have NEVER found this to be the case, in over 700 successful system voicings, including at shows, reviewers' homes, manufacturers, dealer showrooms, and RoomPlay sessions.
IME/IMO...
I use the approach I do because I stumbled upon it, by accident, some decades ago - I wasn't intending to get "special sound", it just emerged because I had happened to do enough of the right things, in one moment of time. Ah-hah!! I said, this is for me - and has been ever since.
The big downside is that it's hard to do, absolutely everything in the setup has to be just right, and this is certainly not a couple of hours work type of thing - it's a long term project, at least at the current level of knowledge of audio subtleties, one has to commit serious focus on making it happen. But the payoff is excellent - I find it very satisfying to do, and get the pleasure of extremely immersive, satisfying playback of recordings to boot ...
The big downside is that it's hard to do, absolutely everything in the setup has to be just right, and this is certainly not a couple of hours work type of thing - it's a long term project, at least at the current level of knowledge of audio subtleties, one has to commit serious focus on making it happen. But the payoff is excellent - I find it very satisfying to do, and get the pleasure of extremely immersive, satisfying playback of recordings to boot ...
I disagree. The room and it's acoustics are critical and that can very much be analysed by measurement.
Can you be specific about "incorrect audible distortions"? What they are and how you eliminate them?
Okay. As suggested in another post I mostly look for three things: poor low level detail, interference effects, and inability to reproduce high SPLs. I consider these all distortions, because the end result is audible sound that is not faithful to what was recorded, ie. distortion.
Poor low level detail is deduced by using a recording that I know from previous playback, on a better performing system, has musical information that, literally, I can't hear on the offending gear.
Interference comes from many sources: I use the process of elimination, by completely shutting down anything in the vicinity, and ensuring that cross-interference between components is minimised, and then listen for quality changes. By reversing the shutdown, etc, one can pinpoint where the weaknesses are, and get ideas for minimising them.
High SPL capability is fairly obvious, just put on the right material and listen for the quality starting to compromise at some volume.
How to eliminate the issues depends on the underlying causes: it may be insufficient power supplies, poor filtering of the mains, poor internal construction of the system components - I would look at the problem in the same way a service technician does who is given an audio box to fault find, troubleshoot, having been told simply "that it's not working well".
Poor low level detail is deduced by using a recording that I know from previous playback, on a better performing system, has musical information that, literally, I can't hear on the offending gear.
Interference comes from many sources: I use the process of elimination, by completely shutting down anything in the vicinity, and ensuring that cross-interference between components is minimised, and then listen for quality changes. By reversing the shutdown, etc, one can pinpoint where the weaknesses are, and get ideas for minimising them.
High SPL capability is fairly obvious, just put on the right material and listen for the quality starting to compromise at some volume.
How to eliminate the issues depends on the underlying causes: it may be insufficient power supplies, poor filtering of the mains, poor internal construction of the system components - I would look at the problem in the same way a service technician does who is given an audio box to fault find, troubleshoot, having been told simply "that it's not working well".
How do you fix poor low level detail without changing components?
Interference - a subjective judgement riddled with the risk of expectation bias - I have an smps in the room and it sounds better with it off
High SPL - subjective issues again with perceptions changed by room acoustics and tonality. Again how do you fix without changing components.
Problem is with most of this is that its just a subjective opinion that has many flaws.
Interference - a subjective judgement riddled with the risk of expectation bias - I have an smps in the room and it sounds better with it off
High SPL - subjective issues again with perceptions changed by room acoustics and tonality. Again how do you fix without changing components.
Problem is with most of this is that its just a subjective opinion that has many flaws.
I don't know exactly what all is being said by fas42, but I know there are times when I can tell a system has "it" as in it's at the point where it really sounds like it should. That is opposed to something that's off for lots of reasons, despite having several pieces in it that are very good. I don't know how to measure this, and I won't pretend to have a working mind meter for it either. Sometimes you just listen to a stereo and you're like, "yeah, ya, it's there."
My experience is rooms can absolutely stop you from achieving that, but aren't as big of a problem as many people think. To me it seems like you tune to get the most out of the stereo and at some point you're squeezing because of an inadequacy in the electronics/power.
My experience is rooms can absolutely stop you from achieving that, but aren't as big of a problem as many people think. To me it seems like you tune to get the most out of the stereo and at some point you're squeezing because of an inadequacy in the electronics/power.
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