What's the best subwoofer? REL? JL AUDIO? Velodyne? Wilson? Something else?

[mojave]

The ultimate in subwoofing from my experience is DIY. In particular Infinite Baffle subwoofer. No commercial subwoofer can even close to a well executed Infinite baffle and they are not that expensive .. $5000 of IB will surpass anything commercial.. Let me repeat: anything commercial. Yet there seems to be just ONE person on this list with an IB ...

I mentioned once before that I was going to be installing an IB system in my house. I finally finished it back in July. I spent less than half of $5000 and have two manifolds with four 15" drivers in each manifold. Each manifold has 2200 watts of power on hand as well. I have participated in a couple of subwoofer GTG's and heard many multiple sub systems (2 or more subs in the room) and the IB system has better sound quality and dynamics. I absolutely love it! My line source mains are flat down to 20 Hz and I am currently crossing over at 40 hz to the subs.

A few weeks ago I had 30 guys come through and listen to my system for the Omaha Home Theater Tour and received many positive reactions. I don't think any had ever heard an infinite baffle system before. One attendee had been in Pennsylvania the previous weekend and heard three Seatons Submersives all going at the same time.

Mark Seaton has had his Submersive Subs at the two subwoofer GTG's I attended and they are great subs. His friend, Jeff Permanian (JTR Speakers), was also present with his sealed, ported, and horn subs. All sounded excellent.

 

[audioarcher]

IB sounds really interesting. I have no way of doing it in my current space but maybe in the my next house.

 

[microstrip]

microstrip

The scientific evidence is there. Those are facts:

The multiplicity of drivers afforded by IB results in increased linearity and vanishingly low distortion.. Electronics-like low distortion. Becasue With multiple drivers you have increased sensitivity, output and power handling. The drivers operate in their most linear region at most SPL.

Most commercial subwoofers are limited by physics. The ideal sealed box for most drivers (say most 15 inch) would be the size of an apartment refrigerator, adding more drivers would have resulted in larger boxes. For the most part Most if Not ALL commercial subwoofers have to make do with a small box and equalize (internally, you don;t have control of that EQ) very heavily. They all do. A simple program such as WinISD wil let you see how serious the drop off in output is when you put most any 15 inch in the kind of boxes we see with commercial subwoofers. IB don't have this limitation the box is a room or in a few installs the outside virtually , truly infinite. (...)

Thanks for the extensive answer. However the scientific evidence of quality you present is very limited. As far as I see the only factor you are addressing is the increased area of the drivers that allows for a smaller linear displacement allowing smaller displacements, that can have lower distortion. Although this is relevant for high SPLs in the bass, such as home theater, it is not too relevant for typical two channel audio audio, where the energy of very low frequencies is very limited. Also we can have the same effect with multiple subs, that have the known advantage of flexible placement and more uniform bass response in a larger area. Also, it is known that servo systems can have very low distortion in the bass at very low frequencies with reduced volumes.

As you know, I valuate a lot the subjective experiences, and your opinion is valuable, but I am looking for any unique objective property of IBs that can explain all the magic you and others seem to associate with them! Because as far as I could read, many people consider that even at very low SPLs the bass of IBs has something very special.

BTW, as far as I can see, any time your total box volume is greater than ten times Vas you are in the IB zone and we should have a driver area over 4 times 15" diameter. Do we agree on that?

 

[FrantzM]

microstrip

What do you really want? Low distortion is even more relevant in our realm than with HT . Fact. IBs excel not only in output but in linearity. In a music purist situation most average level of less than 95 dB in a sizable room say 12 X 6 X 3.2 an IB with four 15-inch decent driver will be idling and produces <1% distortion within its frequency range of operation say 10 to 100 Hz. Do you know many subs that would produce less than 1% THD at those levels while going below 10 Hz? .. name any brand you want to and be able when the occasion demands to go over 100 dB ( at <20 Hz) with similarly low level of Distortion? IB are not just for HT let's erase this notion, the condescension is not subtle ... it is like saying that the MM7 or the Genesis 1.3 are for HT because of their stupendous capabilities in the bass .. No you were not thinking so .... but that's the perception for IBs: They play loud and can shake houses .. NO!! That's not onlywhat they can do ... They are as subtle as they come because they are more linear than commercial, thus size constrained sub ...

Yes that is the rule: 10 times the Vas however decent IB-like results may be obtained with 4 times Vas

 

[FrantzM]

I mentioned once before that I was going to be installing an IB system in my house. I finally finished it back in July. I spent less than half of $5000 and have two manifolds with four 15" drivers in each manifold. Each manifold has 2200 watts of power on hand as well. I have participated in a couple of subwoofer GTG's and heard many multiple sub systems (2 or more subs in the room) and the IB system has better sound quality and dynamics. I absolutely love it! My line source mains are flat down to 20 Hz and I am currently crossing over at 40 hz to the subs.

A few weeks ago I had 30 guys come through and listen to my system for the Omaha Home Theater Tour and received many positive reactions. I don't think any had ever heard an infinite baffle system before. One attendee had been in Pennsylvania the previous weekend and heard three Seatons Submersives all going at the same time.

Mark Seaton has had his Submersive Subs at the two subwoofer GTG's I attended and they are great subs. His friend, Jeff Permanian (JTR Speakers), was also present with his sealed, ported, and horn subs. All sounded excellent.

That makes 2 , the other member is JonFo.

 

[Dimfer]

Heard a few, including JL, SVS, REL, Velodyne... but ended with Von Schweikert Shockwave V15, it use the same bass driver (Diamond) and 2,000 watt amplifiers as the VR9 and VR11. I had a pair SVS (forgot the model) in my system for about a month but decided to take them out because I was not able to integrate them into my setup the way I wanted to. The V15 is fast and very tight.

some audiophile friends in the Philippines like the Rhythmiks for the 2.1 setups a lot..

 

[DaveyF]

Which RELs do you have, Davey?

Tim

Tim, I'm using a REL T5. This sub is a match made in heaven with my SFGH's.

 

[Jazzbo]

Hello all,
I am driving a pair of Peter Gunn (John) Modified Magnapan 1.6 along with 2 Emotiva 10inch sub-woofers. The sound is pleasant if I don't overdrive the subs. While I am mostly a jazz, folk and classical music lover I do have several CD's of music scores with extremely low bass. When my moneyboat comes in I will replace the Emotivas. For now they do a very good job for the money.

jazzbo

 

[AudioExplorations]

I am using a pair of REL G1's to complement my TAD CR1's (music only). The blend is as seamless as I have ever heard and the system is flat down to 15Hz (due partly to room gain). I am a big fan of 'high-level' sub inputs where the sub is connected to the power amp speaker terminals and so inherets more of the system sonic signature.

Not much familiar with the other options but I am a very happy REL user.

 

[bwraudio]

I have also used 2 Hartley 24" subs in a infinite baffle (mounted in the floor).
At the time these subs worked quite well, but it is all relative. Comparing
these subs to what I now use (TRW-17 Rotary sub) is like comparing a VW to a
Porche.
Very low distortion, power handling, transient response, and extension, with
only 200 watts of power!
Mated with my Tympani IV bass panels (modified) the mid bass, low bass
and infra bass is stunning (coherent) and there is no going back.

 

[Justus]

Hey guys, my first post here! Nice place, greet threads, just ran into it today for the first time...jeez!

I agree IB is a highly desirable for reasons stated, but few have the luxury to implement it.

Nonetheless, sealed can work if you make them big.
My own subs consist of four cross-bolted 15" titans in a sealed box. It has no issues playing 100dB 20Hz at THD <1%...in 8 cubic foot box using 3 PEQ bands.

Best wishes,
Justus

 

[treitz3]

Hello, Justus and welcome to the WBF. Glad to see you found us.

Out of curiosity, is your sub a sealed design or ported?

Tom

 

[FrantzM]

Hello, Justus and welcome to the WBF. Glad to see you found us.

Out of curiosity, is your sub a sealed design or ported?

Tom

sealed...

+1 on the welcome went to your site like your approach on the sub ... like the option of the Behringer too.

 

[Justus]

Hey FrantzM and treitz3,

thanks for the nice welcome! Appreciated!

The subs are sealed (most predictable, controlled excursion, cleanest impulse resp).

I figure people probably have their own favorite for amplification and EQ so why should I force it upon them...it further makes my life easier by providing mostly that what is hard to buy for what I consider reasonable money.
The Paradigms are great but lordy $$$! There's just not that much choice for real deep extension at realistic SPL.

Of course if IB could be a sellable product, I (and many others) would.

Rock on!

Hello, Justus and welcome to the WBF. Glad to see you found us.

Out of curiosity, is your sub a sealed design or ported?

Tom

 

[LL21]

I have also used 2 Hartley 24" subs in a infinite baffle (mounted in the floor).
At the time these subs worked quite well, but it is all relative. Comparing
these subs to what I now use (TRW-17 Rotary sub) is like comparing a VW to a
Porche.
Very low distortion, power handling, transient response, and extension, with
only 200 watts of power!
Mated with my Tympani IV bass panels (modified) the mid bass, low bass
and infra bass is stunning (coherent) and there is no going back.View attachment 6988

i gotta hear one of these someday. Rotary subs...

 

[treitz3]

i gotta hear one of these someday. Rotary subs...

Ditto.

 

[steve williams]

Hey FrantzM and treitz3,

thanks for the nice welcome! Appreciated!

The subs are sealed (most predictable, controlled excursion, cleanest impulse resp).

I figure people probably have their own favorite for amplification and EQ so why should I force it upon them...it further makes my life easier by providing mostly that what is hard to buy for what I consider reasonable money.
The Paradigms are great but lordy $$$! There's just not that much choice for real deep extension at realistic SPL.

Of course if IB could be a sellable product, I (and many others) would.

Rock on!

Hi Justus

welcome to WBF and responding so quickly to my e-mail



Is Kal at Yale If so he is in a similar neuro line as yourself

 

[MylesBAstor]

hi justus

welcome to wbf and responding so quickly to my e-mail



is kal at yale if so he is in a similar neuro line as yourself

nyu

 

[NorthStar]

-- Hi Justus, I'm all excited; new people! :b

Cheers,
Bob

 

[Justus]

Hi Justus

welcome to WBF and responding so quickly to my e-mail



Is Kal at Yale If so he is in a similar neuro line as yourself

Thanks Steve for the heads up! I just posted some words about myself in the member section.
Kal and I live seemingly parallel lives! Neuro and "surround sound" (such a misnomer) and New England based, what are the odds?
I think he's working the new Marantz 11.2 processor (av8801), curious to hear what he thinks.
Reading its manual I still find nothing about Audio Rate Control to temper hdmi-jitter. Oh well.
For $2k I'll buy a 11.2 Integra/Onkyo though...if they ever appear.

Good night and thanks again for the warm welcome!
Justus