Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[Steve williams]

And, right on time, some comments by an audio engineer of some well regarded gear, on being open minded ... http://www.audiostream.com/content/...n-reis-listening-measurements-and-uncertainty

Interesting read Frank. Of course there will be the one or two here who will continue to say how right they are and regardless of polls or comments from those who always claim to know better and to try to tell us that what we hear is all nonsense and a product of our imaginations. The reality is for me at least is that I buy music in the format that pleases me and my ears. No one is ever going to change anyone else's mind and it ludicrous when I read some of these "ergo" analogies that I just shake my head and move on. Measurements work for all of us and all of us will do what we can to maximize and to optimize the performance of our systems but for most of us we make final changes with our ears. I don't see the poll as telling us anything more than what we already know and recently the thread has become more posturing than anything else as members jockey for position. The reality is however that we all enjoy and love that to which we listen and no one is going to change anyone's mind. Amir doesn't like vinyl.We get it.We aren't going to change his mind nor will he ever change ours. Does it really matter or do we even care. Should any of us who enjoy vinyl really care as they try to make their case He hears artifacts such a pops and clicks that take him out of the zone. As many have pointed out a good set up in a well made turntable using cleaned records and a clean stylus will remove virtually all of those sounds. He doesn't see it that way and continues to tell us that we are all crazy and can't be hearing anything other than things which are pleasing to our ears. This thread as a result has done nothing except to once again get involved in circuitous arguments that we have heard time and again as well as seeing umpteen graphs that we have seen too many times before to count. If everything were as cut and dry and obvious as he sees it IMO the poll would not look the way it does nor would there be such a following for analog. Does anyone have anything new to contribute or has this thread run its course as I see so many directions now that is taking this thread off topic

 

[Al M.]

Interesting read Frank. Of course there will be the one or two here who will continue to say how right they are and regardless of polls or comments from those who always claim to know better and to try to tell us that what we hear is all nonsense and a product of our imaginations. The reality is for me at least is that I buy music in the format that pleases me and my ears. No one is ever going to change anyone else's mind and it ludicrous when I read some of these "ergo" analogies that I just shake my head and move on. Measurements work for all of us and all of us will do what we can to maximize and to optimize the performance of our systems but for most of us we make final changes with our ears. I don't see the poll as telling us anything more than what we already know and recently the thread has become more posturing than anything else as members jockey for position. The reality is however that we all enjoy and love that to which we listen and no one is going to change anyone's mind. Amir doesn't like vinyl.We get it.We aren't going to change his mind nor will he ever change ours. Does it really matter or do we even care. Should any of us who enjoy vinyl really care as they try to make their case He hears artifacts such a pops and clicks that take him out of the zone. As many have pointed out a good set up in a well made turntable using cleaned records and a clean stylus will remove virtually all of those sounds. He doesn't see it that way and continues to tell us that we are all crazy and can't be hearing anything other than things which are pleasing to our ears. This thread as a result has done nothing except to once again get involved in circuitous arguments that we have heard time and again as well as seeing umpteen graphs that we have seen too many times before to count. If everything were as cut and dry and obvious as he sees it IMO the poll would not look the way it does nor would there be such a following for analog. Does anyone have anything new to contribute or has this thread run its course as I see so many directions now that is taking this thread off topic

Hi Steve,

of course any thread goes off topic, that's the nature of the internet. But we have had more than 100 pages of civilized discussion so far, and if people feel like it, let the discussion continue. Perhaps nobody will change their minds, but a discussion is also good to formulate thoughts for oneself more sharply. And there are still interesting things, like the recent link to the interview with MBL's chief engineer.

 

[amirm]

Interesting read Frank. Of course there will be the one or two here who will continue to say how right they are and regardless of polls or comments from those who always claim to know better and to try to tell us that what we hear is all nonsense and a product of our imaginations.

You mean the notion that digital gives you fatigue but LP does not? If so, I ask again: how did you live so long without LP? I was at your house. You demoed your system to me in private. We talked. Yet you never said a word about it inducing fatigue. We had person after person come to your house and rave about it having the best sound they had heard. Did we imagine reading all of that? I don't think so.

The reality is for me at least is that I buy music in the format that pleases me and my ears. No one is ever going to change anyone else's mind and it ludicrous when I read some of these "ergo" analogies that I just shake my head and move on.

You created this thread Steve. I assume you cared what the authors of said article had to say about what is entering your ear. This was its heading: "Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl." There was no talk of analogies, imagination, etc. in the article. Just some sobering and straight talk from people who make and master the music format you now prefer, on all the compromises it embodies:

"In 1968, a 23-year-old audio engineer named Bob Ludwig at New York's A&R Recording was asked to create a test pressing of The Band's debut, Music From Big Pink, so that the producers could hear what it would sound like on LP. During the process, he especially tried to preserve as much as possible of the deep low end of the band's sound, which he believed was critical to its music.

But when he heard the final LP that was released, he was stunned. "All the low, extreme low bass that I knew was there, was chopped right off."

Why don't we see anyone who praises LP over CD comment on this deficiency? Do you not hear it? Or do you think the people who do this for a living are wrong? Both would be good topics of discussion rather than, "digital gives me ear fatigue."

"When Clearmountain mixed vinyl albums for Columbia Records, he says the label required the test pressing of each LP to play on an old, cheap turntable without skipping, or it would have to be mixed again. Too much bass in one speaker could make the needle skip out of the groove, as would too much sibilance — a harsh "s" — in a singer's voice."

I just came back from AXPONA where I heard so many state-of-the-art LP setups. Yet this problem was evident in all but 2-3 of them. I could not stand the lisping and distorted highs.

Just like you say, I was using my ears. No measurements. No research papers. Just my ears. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I just quoted you people who hear the before and after transformation through the LP saying the same thing.

Why is it that you either don't hear or observe these things? Why? Can you explain that?

Is the truth that they don't really exist? Or that they exist but you either can't hear it or won't acknowledge it?

Combined with pops and clicks, and groove noise these issues created a horrendous experience for me. I want to get lost in the music and not say, "ooh, what was that???"

My money is on many people not being critical listeners. Their hearing is either degraded so much that they don't even hear the lisping and distorted highs, or that they just don't hear them.

You want the membership to check logic at the door when you post an article like this, then just say so. Don't post it and then wonder why someone says, "wait, here are the experts in the industry... I hear the same problems... maybe we should discuss this." No claim was presented other than digital fatigue. The rest was all on what folks hear when they create the music and some of us experience.

 

[Steve williams]

as long as it stays civil Al. Recently i am reading some baiting and a feeling that things might go south.

Like you I was fascinated to have read that link and thanks to Frank for providing it

 

[DaveyF]

"In 1968, a 23-year-old audio engineer named Bob Ludwig at New York's A&R Recording was asked to create a test pressing of The Band's debut, Music From Big Pink, so that the producers could hear what it would sound like on LP. During the process, he especially tried to preserve as much as possible of the deep low end of the band's sound, which he believed was critical to its music.

But when he heard the final LP that was released, he was stunned. "All the low, extreme low bass that I knew was there, was chopped right off."

Why don't we see anyone who praises LP over CD comment on this deficiency? Do you not hear it? Or do you think the people who do this for a living are wrong? Both would be good topics of discussion rather than, "digital gives me ear fatigue."

"When Clearmountain mixed vinyl albums for Columbia Records, he says the label required the test pressing of each LP to play on an old, cheap turntable without skipping, or it would have to be mixed again. Too much bass in one speaker could make the needle skip out of the groove, as would too much sibilance — a harsh "s" — in a singer's voice."

I just came back from AXPONA where I heard so many state-of-the-art LP setups. Yet this problem was evident in all but 2-3 of them. I could not stand the lisping and distorted highs.

Just like you say, I was using my ears. No measurements. No research papers. Just my ears. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I just quoted you people who hear the before and after transformation through the LP saying the same thing.

Why is it that you either don't hear or observe these things? Why? Can you explain that?

Is the truth that they don't really exist? Or that they exist but you either can't hear it or won't acknowledge it?

Combined with pops and clicks, and groove noise these issues created a horrendous experience for me. I want to get lost in the music and not say, "ooh, what was that???"

My money is on many people not being critical listeners. Their hearing is either degraded so much that they don't even hear the lisping and distorted highs, or that they just don't hear them.

You want the membership to check logic at the door when you post an article like this, then just say so. Don't post it and then wonder why someone says, "wait, here are the experts in the industry... I hear the same problems... maybe we should discuss this." No claim was presented other than digital fatigue. The rest was all on what folks hear when they create the music and some of us experience.

Amir, in any endeavor, the ability to triumph is tied to numerous scenarios and therefore, many variables....true with the reproduction of music from vinyl....AND digital.
Although I believe what you say about your experience at AXPONA with most of the vinyl that you heard, I can say with some certainty that to my ears, the sound of vinyl is generally superior to the sound of digital.
However, i have heard on many occasions when the vinyl set-up was not correct...or when the table/arm/cart combo where unable to portray well what is on the LP, a sound that can well be less able than what we typically hear from digital. ( Good digital).
Yet, when vinyl is done right..IMHO, it is an easy win over even the best digital.
Clicks and Pops are a factor that digital does not have to deal with...and frankly IF vinyl is done well, neither does vinyl. A clean and pristine record will go a long way in this regard....assuming that the demonstrator at a show has the ability to demo this type of LP. LOL.

 

[Steve williams]

Some relief is in order As we hear him say in the video, there will be discussions on this long after we are gone but it's all in good fun

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You mean the notion that digital gives you fatigue but LP does not? If so, I ask again: how did you live so long without LP? I was at your house. You demoed your system to me in private. We talked. Yet you never said a word about it inducing fatigue. We had person after person come to your house and rave about it having the best sound they had heard. Did we imagine reading all of that? I don't think so.


You created this thread Steve. I assume you cared what the authors of said article had to say about what is entering your ear. This was its heading: "Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl." There was no talk of analogies, imagination, etc. in the article. Just some sobering and straight talk from people who make and master the music format you now prefer, on all the compromises it embodies:

"In 1968, a 23-year-old audio engineer named Bob Ludwig at New York's A&R Recording was asked to create a test pressing of The Band's debut, Music From Big Pink, so that the producers could hear what it would sound like on LP. During the process, he especially tried to preserve as much as possible of the deep low end of the band's sound, which he believed was critical to its music.

But when he heard the final LP that was released, he was stunned. "All the low, extreme low bass that I knew was there, was chopped right off."

Why don't we see anyone who praises LP over CD comment on this deficiency? Do you not hear it? Or do you think the people who do this for a living are wrong? Both would be good topics of discussion rather than, "digital gives me ear fatigue."

"When Clearmountain mixed vinyl albums for Columbia Records, he says the label required the test pressing of each LP to play on an old, cheap turntable without skipping, or it would have to be mixed again. Too much bass in one speaker could make the needle skip out of the groove, as would too much sibilance — a harsh "s" — in a singer's voice."

I just came back from AXPONA where I heard so many state-of-the-art LP setups. Yet this problem was evident in all but 2-3 of them. I could not stand the lisping and distorted highs.

Just like you say, I was using my ears. No measurements. No research papers. Just my ears. Could I be wrong? Sure. But I just quoted you people who hear the before and after transformation through the LP saying the same thing.

Why is it that you either don't hear or observe these things? Why? Can you explain that?

Is the truth that they don't really exist? Or that they exist but you either can't hear it or won't acknowledge it?

Combined with pops and clicks, and groove noise these issues created a horrendous experience for me. I want to get lost in the music and not say, "ooh, what was that???"

My money is on many people not being critical listeners. Their hearing is either degraded so much that they don't even hear the lisping and distorted highs, or that they just don't hear them.

You want the membership to check logic at the door when you post an article like this, then just say so. Don't post it and then wonder why someone says, "wait, here are the experts in the industry... I hear the same problems... maybe we should discuss this." No claim was presented other than digital fatigue. The rest was all on what folks hear when they create the music and some of us experience.

there are literally hundreds of millions of Lps, maybe billions. and they all got mastered at some point and the mastering engineers made decisions.

I can only comment on the broad group of Lps I have listened to, both in my system, and on other systems. as far as low frequency response you have extension, articulation and authority in the bass. most music does not challenge extension as it does not go much below the mid 20hz range. I have lots of Lps where I have a dub of the original master, as well as a digital dub of the master.

mostly the overall sense of low frequency foundation and articulation is consistently superior on the Lp playback in my system. as I don't measure extension that is a hard one to quantify. but I rarely experience a pressing where deep bass is stunted.

I will say as a group my oldest pressings likely have the least extension. but articulation and authority is always excellent on those older pressings. particularly old monos. if you read about mastering of older pressings there is a factor of play-ability on modest tt's from those times.

again; there are hundreds of millions of Lps and quite a bit of variability on the bass extension and levels that are used.

 

[sbo6]

No one is ever going to change anyone else's mind and it ludicrous when I read some of these "ergo" analogies that I just shake my head and move on.

Steve, if so, what were your expectations when posting on such a controversial topic?

 

[Steve williams]

It was the false logic made in such a statement, nothing more ( I took logic in college BTW). This thread is all about preferences and nothing more. People will continue to make choices based on what they like and what sounds best to them or am I mistaken

 

[amirm]

there are literally hundreds of millions of Lps, maybe billions. and they all got mastered at some point and the mastering engineers made decisions.

I can only comment on the broad group of Lps I have listened to, both in my system, and on other systems. as far as low frequency response you have extension, articulation and authority in the bass. most music does not challenge extension as it does not go much below the mid 20hz range. I have lots of Lps where I have a dub of the original master, as well as a digital dub of the master.

mostly the overall sense of low frequency foundation and articulation is consistently superior on the Lp playback in my system. as I don't measure extension that is a hard one to quantify. but I rarely experience a pressing where deep bass is stunted.

I will say as a group my oldest pressings likely have the least extension. but articulation and authority is always excellent on those older pressings. particularly old monos. if you read about mastering of older pressings there is a factor of play-ability on modest tt's from those times.

again; there are hundreds of millions of Lps and quite a bit of variability on the bass extension and levels that are used.

I don't know what you are saying Mike. For one, mastering is per title released, not every individual LP. In there regard, there is no way you have millions and billions of titles released in LP. You have that many individual records maybe, but not different mastering.

As to rest, are you disagreeing with what was stated in the article by the mastering engineers? How are you in a better position than them to compare the signal before and after it went to LP?

Here is similar message from AES workshop on LP mastering:

"NEVER MIND THE QUALITY,
FEEL THE WIDTH
There are also compromises to be
made with bass content and stereo
imaging. Essentially, the groove of a
vinyl disc is modulated side-to-side for
mono content and up-down for the
“difference” channel (the S or side
signal of MS stereo, which is the
difference between left and right audio
channels). Both of these affect the
amount of space that a groove takes up
on the disc, and therefore the playing
time. If the bass level is too high in
certain contexts, and depending on
where it is located in the stereo image,
the replay stylus can even be made to
“jump out of the groove” or a lot of
distortion can result. During lacquer
cutting, excessive vertical deviation can
cut through the lacquer coating of the
disc and hit the metal base material. It
may therefore be necessary to
compress some of the bass energy in a
mix or to make it more mono. Out-ofphase
content in the mix can cause
excessive vertical deviation of the
stylus, so there are limits to the creative
freedom to use such effects. These
things are not usually a problem for
digital releases where virtually anything
is allowed, which can explain some of
the differences between the two
domains."

Again, this is what LP mastering engineers are being taught.

 

[amirm]

It was the false logic made in such a statement, nothing more ( I took logic in college BTW). This thread is all about preferences and nothing more. People will continue to make choices based on what they like and what sounds best to them or am I mistaken

You are indeed mistaken Steve. We or at least I, are discussing the content of the article you posted where expert mastering engineers talk about compromises that must be made to make LPs. Ad-hoc defending of the format based on what you hear or your personal preferences is off-topic. We are not discussing the art here. We are discussing the physical mediums of CD versus LP and what must be done to fit music into them.

Since the inception of this forum, I have not read anything so specific and so authoritative about what goes into LP mastering. The notion that this is same old, same old, doesn't resonate with me at all. I am personally learning and reading explanations of distortions I have been hearing in LP. My ability to analyze LP playback at AXPONA went up exponentially as a result of this discussion and further reading of the AES workshop report.

This should make you a more critical listener. But only if you choose to do so. It is not good to be so aware of "how the sausage is made."

 

[Steve williams]

My money is on many people not being critical listeners. Their hearing is either degraded so much that they don't even hear the lisping and distorted highs, or that they just don't hear them.

Just so I get this straight your bets are that anyone who owns and prefers vinyl is because they are not critical listeners and/or their hearing has degraded. Anyone else agree with this ? So bottom line is that there are millions of owners world wide who prefer vinyl have the above problems. I think not otherwise that would fit the diagnosis consistent with mass hysteria and IMO this is just not the case and once again a premiss built on false logic IMO of course

 

[amirm]

Just so I get this straight your bets are that anyone who owns and prefers vinyl is because they are not critical listeners and/or their hearing has degraded. Anyone else agree with this ? So bottom line is that there are millions of owners world wide who prefer vinyl have the above problems. I think not otherwise that would fit the diagnosis consistent with mass hysteria and IMO this is just not the case and once again a premiss built on false logic IMO of course

The distortions are measurable, provable, and audible. They are also confirmed by multiple mastering experts who create LP for a living. So give me an explanation Steve on why you don't comment on them being there. I am all ears, pun intended .

 

[still-one]

Just so I get this straight your bets are that anyone who owns and prefers vinyl is because they are not critical listeners and/or their hearing has degraded. Anyone else agree with this ? So bottom line is that there are millions of owners world wide who prefer vinyl have the above problems. I think not otherwise that would fit the diagnosis consistent with mass hysteria and IMO this is just not the case and once again a premiss built on false logic IMO of course

Steve, not all of us who prefer digital to vinyl believe "anyone who owns and prefers vinyl is because they are not critical listeners and/or their hearing has degraded." There are many factors that form our individual "Preferences" in the crazy hobby of ours. We don't all enjoy the same movies, we don't all like the same art, we don't all like the same food so why is it assumed that we are all looking for the same sound?

 

[amirm]

FYI I just post my review of YG at AXPONA where I heard the first and one of the few fantastic LP playbacks: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...s-kronos-turntables-mola-mola-amplifiers.359/

 

[FrantzM]

Steve, not all of us who prefer digital to vinyl believe "anyone who owns and prefers vinyl is because they are not critical listeners and/or their hearing has degraded." There are many factors that form our individual "Preferences" in the crazy hobby of ours. We don't all enjoy the same movies, we don't all like the same art, we don't all like the same food so why is it assumed that we are all looking for the same sound? There are no absolutes in music reproduction, so just don't tell me I a wrong and I will take the same position.

+1

And liking digital or believing in objective metrics doesn't result in us liking music less than anyone. That derisive and divisive notion is not adding to the discussion.

 

[andromedaaudio]

IF we look at the photography world , analogue and digital seem to get along fine , ???
Besides that both photography and audiophily have a lot in common

 

[Steve williams]

Steve, not all of us who prefer digital to vinyl believe "anyone who owns and prefers vinyl is because they are not critical listeners and/or their hearing has degraded." There are many factors that form our individual "Preferences" in the crazy hobby of ours. We don't all enjoy the same movies, we don't all like the same art, we don't all like the same food so why is it assumed that we are all looking for the same sound? There are no absolutes in music reproduction, so just don't tell me I a wrong and I will take the same position.

Jim I am not disagreeing with anything you say. I agree with it and have said that here. These are all preferences. A statement was made that all people who like vinyl is because they either like distortions because they aren't critical listeners or they have diminished hearing. My reading that give me the same knee jerk reaction that you had. FWIW I have said time and again I like both. I just prefer vinyl more like many here do as well. These are simply preferences and no matter what the argument no one is going to change their positions

 

[NorthStar]

Not all of us who prefer digital to vinyl believe "anyone who owns and prefers vinyl is because they are not critical listeners and/or their hearing has degraded." There are many factors that form our individual "Preferences" in the crazy hobby of ours. We don't all enjoy the same movies, we don't all like the same art, we don't all like the same food so why is it assumed that we are all looking for the same sound? There are no absolutes in music reproduction.

That rings very right to me; it is right.

* Why vinyls may actually sound better than CD.
__________

Say you are listening to some music, and it penetrates your soul in great emotional blows/strides, like almost bleeding tears of blood and joy from the internal parts of your body, and externally too...tears in your eyes. That's powerful, almost like sex when you reach that orgasm. Except that with the last one your entire body is fully relaxed physically after the fact.

Now, I did not say what was spinning; a vinyl or a CD. But let's suppose that it was a vinyl record that gave you that spiritual orgasm up to the point of shading some tears from your eyes coming from your motor...heart and transformer...soul. Ok, no problemo....all is excellent.
Now, just imagine that @ the other end of the world...somewhere between China and Kathmandu, ...

 

[treitz3]

Well, my preference may sway depending on what format I have a better recording of. So with that argument, my position may change. Does that count?



Tom