OK, that is just too funny
. Go read the book if you can understand it, then you can tell people to follow it John. I have little use for people's argument when the only source is the Wikipedia.
Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl
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. Go read the book if you can understand it, then you can tell people to follow it John. I have little use for people's argument when the only source is the Wikipedia.OK, that is just too funny
Wow, you've finally taken on the persona of AJ - well done - do you see this, Amir?
You are referring to Bregman's 1990 book on ASA. Are you fixated on the year 1990 or something?
So let me quote back to you what you posted on ASR to AJ "Enough AJ. This is not a place for you to go after everyone's pant legs left and right. What's next? You are going to attack how he dresses?"
If you could just answer the on topic question asked of you, all your deflections & your personal insults would be avoided
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Lol. True, and halls don't always measure the best. Though I auditioned two orchestras when the curtains were drawn and they both sounded the same
The only pant leg involved is mine and you not letting go John. What I referenced regarding the text being difficult is factual. Here is the one only review on Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/Auditory-Scen...ne analysis&qid=1461532402&ref_=sr_1_1&sr=8-1
"This is a book I purchased for a class on sound design. It is boring and pedantic, and rather difficult to read. Since I have a strong science background, it was easier for me to read than some of my classmates. I would suggest reading it in small doses, as it's easier to understand that way."
Please don't pretend to have read a book when you have not. I consider that a serious offense on forums where people throw around paper tiles and books hoping to score a point with members, when in reality they have not read them themselves. I call it virtual bullying and don't appreciate it at all. And yes, that is what AJ does but to a lesser extent than what you just did.
Amir, all you need to read is on Bregman's website or did you not know this?
What is your ranting about - "pretend to have read", "offense on forums" "virtual bullying"?
It's all rather comical that you are building your strawman & then treating it as such a book of serious offences
It's plain to see that these schoolyard tactics are just another deflection to avoid answering the question posed of you.
So, to repeat again what Lloyd asked of you & many others also asked "as a scientist, are you 100% satisfied that we know all the right measurements that specifically measure the elements from sound reproduction that are particularly important to human hearing (as opposed to mechanical hearing)? "
Are you willing to honestly answer this or are you intent on continued deflection & avoidance?
It is not about the book. It is about answering questions directly. Lloyd asked a good one. Others have too. They remain unanswered.
When a performance on LP is described as having resolution and noise levels rivaling CD, and this contradicts the main points of the article in the OP, it would be helpful to discuss how this is possible and to read some of the details about the experience.
I had an epiphany of sorts when I heard the extreme resolution and lack of digital artifacts with the dCS gear on redbook CD. I learned a lot that day and gained a sense of optimism about digital playback. It opened my ears and mind to the qualities of a format that I had previously dismissed. I would think that a positive encounter by a digital devotee with LP playback would have a similar effect on preconceived ideas.
Thanks for the links, Bob. I read them and found these statements describing the sound of LP on the Kronos:
"The only format in the room was analog and LP was played. And it was a pleasure. It was the first LP I heard that was click and static free and rivaled CD in resolution and lack of distortion. Shazam says this was the music: Stimela (The Coal Train) by Hugh Masekela. http://shz.am/t10824615 but I don't know if it finds LPs correctly or not.
Regardless, the sound and experience was superb. Nothing to complain about from this digital guy
I told him that I was a digital guy and found it one of the few LP playbacks at the show that rivaled the CD in how clean it was. And he agreed that is one of its attributes
Excellent LP track at the show as I mentioned above. No pops. No clicks. No groove noise. Just music. Very well done."
High praise indeed for a format that has obvious, audible flaws such as pops/clicks, inner groove distortion, overt sibilance, wow and flutter issues, etc. The report seems to imply that these flaws were not heard on that demonstration. I wonder how that is possible given the facts argued in the OP article.
This report is consistent with much of my experience with vinyl LPs which is also in conflict with the article.
Could we discuss what might be the possible reasons for this conflict? These subjective observations about LP and CD and Lloyd's question about measurements relating to what we hear, seem to be at the heart of this thread's discussion.
Yes, my repeated observations about the imperfections of most digital, which appear to be solved only on the top level such as with the dCS Rossini or Vivaldi, have largely been unanswered as well. And I am a die-hard digiphile who does not have any vinyl playback at home and who believes digital theory is correct (with the CD sample rate being sufficient) and must deliver superior results once being able to be implemented to its full potential.
So did my encounter with your top quality vinyl playback, Peter. Others have claimed that due to its nominal dynamic range of just 70 dB vinyl is too limited. While this may very well hold with respect to some pressings, I have heard truly explosive dynamics in your system that should be the envy of any CD playback and are not commonly reached on that medium as well. In particular, I have not yet heard any jazz CD that has the explosive, hair-raising dynamics of "For Duke" on your system. On the other hand, I do have some classical recordings that fare extremely well on my system when it comes to dynamics.
You talk about extreme resolution of CD playback on the dCS Rossini: indeed it is the only CD playback that I have ever heard that comes close to, or perhaps even matches, the enormous resolution of your vinyl playback.
So digital proponents who claim that vinyl is per se inferior to digital in terms of dynamics and resolution have not sufficiently been exposed to top vinyl playback under optimal set-up and room conditions (what you hear at High End shows usually doesn't count, so I am not at all surprised when Amir reported on the Kronos LP playback at Axpona being an exception among a sea of other LP playback).
But I guess few people are as open-minded as you and I and are willing to learn, without restrictive preconceived notions, from the very best examples that either medium, vinyl or CD, has to offer.
Yes, wow and flutter is virtually non-existent on top vinyl playback. Piano on your system, Peter, sounds as incredibly stable as on CD. And it has a solidity of sound, as well as truthful harmonics, that are rarely matched by CD playback of piano. Same of course holds for the playback on the Kronos turntable that I have heard in Madfloyd's ssytem.
So when Bob Stuart complains about piano sound on LP playback in the OP article, he clearly hasn't heard what is possible from that medium.
My feelings so far are that there is almost limitless potential to be explored - at times, for a short period when all the stars are in alignment the playback quality has been quite staggering - the listening room, the house completely vanishes; your universe is the sound, and nothing but the sound, a vast expanse spread all around you, stretching as far as one could possibly want to explore ...
Methinks that that Kronos turntable (few models) is one heck of a great turntable...dual platine decker. Plus the LPs were carefully chosen, must been top quality recordings.
I've read few reviews here and there, and if I could afford that kind of money towards a TT, it would be one that I would carefully audition with the music I love in my life...covering many genres, not just classical music.
Amir surely appreciate good sound quality, and he did not shy of saying it here.
* Audio/music discussions are good, and that's exactly what we are all doing...Amir included...big time.
Peter, you can join audiosciencereview too; the door is open to ALL.
I wish that it was also common practice @ other audio sites where the heart and soul is also into the music like all.
I accept restrictions; some audiophiles build their clubs like cults which are not accessible to all music lovers @ heart. It's their prerogative, but music will always be universal and free of expression by all people.
There is one way, the better way, and it's forward, not backward. Music has a deep history in man's cultural evolution, and it is this culture we're all forming and part of.
Without music there is no audio, no talk about live sound reproduction. Without music it's a big empty room without acoustics.
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