Why CDs May Actually Sound Better Than Vinyl

[NorthStar]

Problem with that argument in this context is that it is NOT supported by the article in OP:

"Scott Metcalfe, director of recording arts and sciences at the Peabody Conservatory of Johns Hopkins University, says the move to CDs was especially beneficial for reproducing classical recordings.

"Really in every way measurable, the digital formats are going to exceed analog in dynamic range, meaning the distance between how loud and how soft," he says. "In the classical world, [that means] getting really quiet music that isn't obscured by the pops and clicks of vinyl or just the noise floor of the friction of the stylus against the [LP] itself."

This is what LP devotees need to hang their hat on:

"Because vinyl's restrictions do not permit the same abuse of audio levels as the CD, Mayo says that listeners might hear a wider dynamic range in an album mixed separately for vinyl over a compact disc version optimized for loudness — even though vinyl, as a format, has a narrower range than CD."


We have a perfectly acceptable explanation to both camps yet we choose to go and create a war over stuff we can't prove, i.e. unknown problems with digital.

All the technical issues with Vinyl which are clearly audible and not at all a positive by themselves, are stated in the OP article. Not by some random objectivists member on a forum but people in the recording industry that create these formats. So let's not go after cheap arguments like that. Read the article and indicate where you think these industry people are going wrong. I think you will have a hard time and that is why I think this is one of the best write-ups I have seen on the topic. It is balanced, and factual.

But then of course we have another respected individual in the industry as Frank has found.....


http://www.audiostream.com/content/...surements-and-uncertainty#EQF2hDqsJwxKivhW.97

You want to quote the relevant part of that interview with the OP article? I see no references to LP versus digital there.

Amir, I am reading attentively and quoting above I cannot escape a reality that is your own (and mine too) life's philosophy: Learning.

It is excellent the content in the first quote above. And Steve replied to it with an excellent link that was posted earlier by Frank. It don't matter if the topic takes us further in our learning curve, but it matters most. :b Because that link is the real deal in real life, and from there our audio world can evolve.

I absolutely believe that classical orchestral music is best reproduced from the CD music audio medium than the vinyl one...anything music that is complex; with lots of arrangements and musical instruments in its recording content. I also believe with firm conviction that the bass is also best reproduced by the CD medium over vinyl.
This is one music genre.

Various music recordings like for example Yes - Tales from Topographic Oceans on vinyl (double LP) and on CD, depending of the source, the quality recording, the system (which is everything in the chain) by which it is reproduced, the listener, his room...will create a preference for one music medium over the other.
I am familiar with that music recording from the regular LP and regular CD. From those particular recordings I prefer on vinyl.
But if a new remastered is available on CD, that could swing my preference...I would simply need to listen to such a new remastering recording.
The CD I have is awful, and the double LP is not the best but much more pleasant to me...definitively, categorically.

We don't have our head in a vice grip when listening to music or watching movies...our head moves occasionally...if even by few inches.
We don't have our brain in a vice grip when discussing audio and acoustics. This is a vast and complex world, and it can take us indirectly to off-topic subjects but always related in its complexity and desire to learn...our true passion and goal to happiness.

The level of balance is in the balance itself between science well executed, interpreted and real life synergy of all audio components in a real life's room of each individual's system and set of ears and his/her preference.

We, the majority of us, agree that the correlation between measurements in their context and listening sessions in their context is a good blend of a totality in experimenting, analyzing and discovering. We're here because we love not only music listening but also assurance in life that our musical evolution reaches the soul that resides in each one of us the way we vibrates in harmony with the surrounding world and galaxy above and beyond us. Sounds travel, lights travel, human spirits travel...

I can only refer to my own personal experience, and that's why I love reading about others...so that I can expand and experiment some more on my own.
Our limits are only our dedication and time and financial resources. ...Plus our openness to the wide picture. * That link that Frank posted earlier is one of the best link contributed/shared in this thread...it incites us to have an open mind to the real life's truths about music reproduction. ...This hobby we're passionate about, and which brings us all here. Every single voice is important, every single little detail, every angle. And most, the respect we have towards ourselves; the truest and deepest.
___________

? Question (for the high heeled ones): In a state-of-the-art hi-fi stereo two-channel sound system playing a topnotch mastered vinyl of Tchaikovsky 1812 Overture from full orchestra, and another same recording from a topnotch mastered CD; which one brings the most impact and sound satisfaction? ...Just vinyl and CD (no tape and no hi-res download).

 

[NorthStar]

Let's get back on topic to the article in the OP which describes all of the well known flaws with vinyl. Amir, could you describe which of these obvious flaws you heard and how they effected your enjoyment of the music during that Kronos/YG demonstration of vinyl at AXPONA?

Did they play complex music of classical orchestral works? ...And Opera with choir and organ? ...Spinning on that Kronos TT.
Should we even expect to play those music genres in our humble rooms @ home, and even from digital medium like the CD, and expect realism?

Speaking of natural realism, closest accuracy to life, to love, to pleasure, to happiness; which provides us best...the vinyl or the CD? :b

P.S. Technical mention: If you don't erase the prior multi quotes, they replicate all by themselves automatically in your next post.
That's a tech forum website 'glitch' I noticed. ...No big deal as I just deleted two other quotes that weren't needed in this new post. Still a little imperfection. :b

 

[amirm]

One thing not discussed is the profound difference in how I choose music to listen to and what I listen to in respect of gong digital

Yeh. its great to remember going to the record shop..the booths.. buying , unwrapping and the first play with a lot of fondness..and nostalgia

Today is a different world...I have grown up and have different commitments on my time and desire to troll record shops as they are these days...is well..not a priority

With digital on my h/d and streaming. there is this huge smorgasbord of music available to me instantly and that is so enticing .. and with streaming..so cheap

It has enabled me to broaden my musical horizons like no ever time in my audio life..
I listen to more and more varied tues these days than if I was still spinning vinyl.

Yeh, we are skipping over the incredible benefit that digital provides today. I would suffocate musically if I were restricted to LP as a format. There is just so much incredible music out there that is not remotely available in LP. We keep saying "it is all about music" but sure as heck don't put much priority on that when we limit ourselves to such a small LP collection.

And of course there is the matter of convenience which digital provides. Whether it is through instant streaming via Tidal, or buying a download and listening to it an hour later, digital provide so many advantages.

The power of digital technology allowed me to identify albums/tracks at Axpona and instantly have access to them all whether it was on the flight home, in the car or on my main system.

Some want to worship this:

I rather worship the catalog of music that fills the space between earth and the moon!

So yes, well said.

 

[Steve williams]

but sure as heck don't put much priority on that when we limit ourselves to such a small LP collection.

I will bet money that there are members here who have a larger vinyl collection than you have digital. An invalid argument on your end

 

[andromedaaudio]

If this thread hits 500 pages we should have a party

 

[amirm]

I will bet money that there are members here who have a larger vinyl collection than you have digital. An invalid argument on your end

Invalid understanding on your part Steve. It is not the count of what I have. It is the count of what is available in the market that I can acquire. Here is Tidal alone: https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/201167102-How-much-music-is-available-in-TIDAL-

"How Much Music Is Available In TIDAL?
The catalog in TIDAL is always growing. Currently, we have licensed over 40 million tracks for you to enjoy and 130 000 high quality videos."

With one click, I can put any of those tracks in my music library in Roon. All 40 millions of them. And without spending a cent more than$20/month I am paying (cost of one LP?) So go ahead and tell me who can keep up with that on the LP front.

Did you honestly not understand what Rodney and I said about availability of music in digital versus LP to throw this at me?

 

[Steve williams]

Invalid understanding on your part Steve. It is not the count of what I have. It is the count of what is available in the market that I can acquire. Here is Tidal alone: https://support.tidal.com/hc/en-us/articles/201167102-How-much-music-is-available-in-TIDAL-

"How Much Music Is Available In TIDAL?
The catalog in TIDAL is always growing. Currently, we have licensed over 40 million tracks for you to enjoy and 130 000 high quality videos."


With one click, I can put any of those albums in my music library in Roon. All 40 millions of them. So go ahead and tell me who can keep up with that on the LP front.

Did you honestly not understand what Rodney and I said about availability of music in digital versus LP to throw this at me?

I totally get it. Sadly you don't get my reply

 

[jkeny]

Here is the preface:

And I didn't say this book has everything about psychoacoustics. I said that it was a bible of information about what we know about our hearing but that there are hundreds if not thousands of other research papers out there. What is there however, should convince everyone here that we know a ton about the limitations of our hearing system which is what Lloyd asked.

Thanks for that, Amir. And yet, as Frank says there are no links to ASA - have you considered that this book is about a part of psychoacoustics, the psychophysics area & does not support your claim "So take comfort that we know this science." ?

No that's not what Lloyd asked - it's your skewed interpretation of what he asked - he asked "as a scientist, are you 100% satisfied that we know all the right measurements that specifically measure the elements from sound reproduction that are particularly important to human hearing (as opposed to mechanical hearing)? "

And you avoided answering it directly, instead quoting a book & making statements like "So take comfort that we know this science." which is leading the reader to interpret it as "yes" to Llyod's question but allows you the room for deniability that is your answer. So the question remains unanswered

Are you going to answer Llyod's question directly or not? It's a simple question that many are pointing out to you lies at the bottom of your stance & which is fundamental to your position but you continue to avoid answering directly

 

[amirm]

Thanks for that, Amir. And yet, as Frank says there are no links to ASA - perhaps this book is about psychophysics area of psychoacoustics & does not support your claim "So take comfort that we know this science."

Have you read this book and Bregman's? Regardless, if anyone wants to read your argument they can go to ASR forum: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/auditory-scene-analysis.236/. This is not the topic to argue it.

Are you going to answer Llyod's question directly or not?

I answered him extensively including many other proof points beside the book.

 

[NorthStar]

CD recordings can be just fine......but it will likely cost you. my view is they are on par with dsd, if slightly different.

with my 4 month experience with the Trinity dac with my 7 terabytes of PCM, there were few PCM recordings that seemed to be flawed. OTOH I never collected much music which sounded like crap anyway......so not sure my experience is completely relevant in the big picture.

if I were to somehow go back to my PCM/redbook viewpoint prior to my Trinity dac experience then I would be asking the same questions.

Mike, how much? ...For fine CD music recordings that are not "crap"? :b

Today, what would you recommend to a young audiophile ... say 17-year old, and a girl? :b
And, to an older guy ... say 70-year old without much money?
And, to a top audiophile with plenty of money, and who likes classical music mostly, including orchestral works?
And, to a middle-age audiophile ... say 33-year old with a taste for Heavy Metal, Rock, New World, Avantgarde, Progressive Jazz, Reggae, Electronica & RAP?
And, to a Country Western music fan ... say a woman in her forties or fifties?
And, to a man and woman into disco (The Bee Gees) and Pop (Bieber) and Irish music (The Chieftains, etc.)?
And, to a guy into mainly Cuban and Brazilian and African music with accordion, classical guitars, and drums?
And, to a woman into mainly Punk, Hip Hop from International Wave with exotic musical instruments plus synthesized music and dubs?
And, to a guy into Coltrane and Davis mainly jazz from the fifties and sixties?
And, to a guy into mainly classic rock (Led Zeppelin, AC/DC) and Blues (John Lee Hooker, Stevie Ray Vaughan)?
And, to a gal into soft listening music (Barry Manilow, Celine Dion)?

What kind of music medium for all of them between CD and vinyl?

 

[jkeny]

Have you read this book and Bregman's? Regardless, if anyone wants to read your argument they can go to ASR forum: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/auditory-scene-analysis.236/. This is not the topic to argue it.

I have looked through the contents of the Zwicker book which is enough to tell me what topics are being covered.

I answered him extensively including many other proof points beside the book.

You answered your own version of what he asked, not what he asked & what others continue to point out to you.

As I edited my post just before your reply, you probably didn't see it - "It's a simple question that many are pointing out to you lies at the bottom of your stance & which is fundamental to your position but you continue to avoid answering directly"
And you continue to avoid answering it - a position that doesn't go unnoticed by readers

This is not a political debate where avoiding the question asked is par for the course

 

[NorthStar]

Lets see, thick and gooey. Must be something with a tube in it.

Tube and analog would be a good direction, yes. ...So vinyl with a tube triode amp and tube phono preamp, yes. ...Analog interconnects, balanced XLR.

 

[NorthStar]

If this thread hits 500 pages we should have a party

We are having a party already. And this thread will eventually hit one thousand pages, if we really want to and that nobody lose his marbles. :b

 

[NorthStar]

http://www.laweekly.com/music/why-cds-may-actually-sound-better-than-vinyl-5352162

my perception was that the Trinity dac was very involving. it sounded alive and very musically cohesive. I would say I clearly miss it's magic with the PCM/redbook files.

OTOH it was 'very' optimized.

I was using the CAPS v4 Pipeline server with Elberoth/Lampizator mods (Windows 2012 RS Standard in core mode and Audiophile Optimizer), a Teradak LPS and Uptone LPS as well as the SAT battery power for the SAT card......the 1m Totaldac USB cable with the LPS powered Uptone Regen. it was sitting on a Herzan TS-150 active isolation shelf and I was using the Tara Labs Grandmaster w/HFX grounding XLR interconnects and it was plugged into the new dart preamp.

it was grounded to the Entreq Silver Tellus. at that time I did not yet have the Tripoint Troy. and I had not yet upgraded my outlets and PC plugs to the Furutech NCF spec. and with the Trinity every step mattered.

Makes sense, that explains.

 

[amirm]

I have looked through the contents of the Zwicker book which is enough to tell me what topics are being covered.

So you haven't read it. Did you read Bergman's book on ASA which you keep bringing up? Or did you rely on Wikipedia instead?

You answered your own version of what he asked, not what he asked & what others continue to point out to you.

You haven't pointed out anything. Anyone can declare what you are. That doesn't mean it has any validity.

I explained in detail to Lloyd how science of psychoacoustics and thresholds of audibility of distortions works because it exists in lossy compression. And since vast majority of audiophiles can't tell artifacts of lossy compression at high bit rate, that is prima facie evidence that the science is extremely well known and well implemented. The basis of all of that is in the Zwicker and Fastl book.

If Lloyd has further questions I would be my pleasure to answer.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, how much? ...For fine CD music recordings that are not "crap"? :b

the last I heard the list price of the Trinity dac was $56k USD plus an expensive high level server and other supporting pieces. I bought mine used, then sold it for a little less than I paid 4 months later.

I don't know what other choices (if there are any) might cost that offer similar level performance. some might say that MQPlayer upsampling PCM to Quad dsd into a comparatively modestly priced dsd dac gets close. I've not heard yet that myself.

Today, what would you recommend to a young audiophile ... say 17-year old, and a girl? :b
And, to an older guy ... say 70-year old without much money?
And, to a top audiophile with plenty of money, and who likes classical music mostly, including orchestral works?
And, to a middle-age audiophile ... say 33-year old with a taste for Heavy Metal, Rock, New World, Avantgarde, Progressive Jazz, Reggae, Electronica & RAP?
And, to a Country Western music fan ... say a woman in her forties or fifties?
And, to a man and woman into disco (The Bee Gees) and Pop (Bieber) and Irish music (The Chieftains, etc.)?
And, to a guy into mainly Cuban and Brazilian and African music with accordion, classical guitars, and drums?
And, to a woman into mainly Punk, Hip Hop from International Wave with exotic musical instruments plus synthesized music and dubs?
And, to a guy into Coltrane and Davis mainly jazz from the fifties and sixties?
And, to a guy into mainly classic rock (Led Zeppelin, AC/DC) and Blues (John Lee Hooker, Stevie Ray Vaughan)?
And, to a gal into soft listening music (Barry Manilow, Celine Dion)?

I had my previous digital player for 9 years......2006-2015. all during that time I would hear various 'uber' dacs and digital players at shows and such. none ever completely floated my boat with PCM. I really don't have a strong recommendation one way or another for a modest alternative. especially at the entry level. likely using headphones from a laptop, tablet or smart phone is perfectly adequate to enjoy music.

sorry I just am not informed in entry level gear. the area of 'modest' level gear I know is like the recent integrated dac/pre/amp from darTZeel, the LHC-208. but it's $15k......and would not be 'real world' for most people.

What kind of music medium for all of them between CD and vinyl?

I think CD (or redbook files) or streaming redbook is the way to go for most people. it's where the music is. and few care enough about sound quality to get into the limitations of dsd or especially vinyl.

vinyl is a 'lifestyle' choice due to the space and gear requirements. I know there are many who think vinyl is cool and I suppose that is a perfectly fine reason to go down that road. but if someone is asking my advice I would try to find out how much they care about the sound before I would recommend it.

 

[jkeny]

So you haven't read it. Did you read Bergman's book on ASA which you keep bringing up? Or did you rely on Wikipedia instead?

Is this another one of your contests, Amir? Who has better hearing than you? Who has read more than you? As I said, the contents section of the Zwicker book tell me what the book covers & what it doesn't.

You haven't pointed out anything. Anyone can declare what you are. That doesn't mean it has any validity.

I explained in detail to Lloyd how science of psychoacoustics and thresholds of audibility of distortions works because it exists in lossy compression. And since vast majority of audiophiles can't tell artifacts of lossy compression at high bit rate, that is prima facie evidence that the science is extremely well known and well implemented. The basis of all of that is in the Zwicker and Fastl book.

If Lloyd has further questions I would be my pleasure to answer.

Llyod doesn't need to come back with any further question when his first question still remains unanswered by you - "as a scientist, are you 100% satisfied that we know all the right measurements that specifically measure the elements from sound reproduction that are particularly important to human hearing (as opposed to mechanical hearing)? "

Your ducking & diving when confronted with this question is ample evidence of where you stand & your inability to face up to this, unpalatable to you, fact.

 

[NorthStar]

I think CD (or redbook files) or streaming redbook is the way to go for most people. it's where the music is. and few care enough about sound quality to get into the limitations of dsd or especially vinyl.

vinyl is a 'lifestyle' choice due to the space and gear requirements. I know there are many who think vinyl is cool and I suppose that is a perfectly fine reason to go down that road. but if someone is asking my advice I would try to find out how much they care about the sound before I would recommend it.

That was the part I was most interested, and coming from you...thank you.

 

[amirm]

As I said, the contents section of the Zwicker book tell me what the book covers & what it doesn't.

I asked you about Bregman's book which is your new thesis on "ASA." Not Zwicker. Have you read that book or not?

 

[jkeny]

I asked you about Bregman's book which is your new thesis on "ASA." Not Zwicker. Have you read that book or not?

Another of your many deflections in an attempt to avoid answering the question asked of you.