Wilson Alexx V vs Rockport Orion

[Lee]

Elliot, I will go further. Not only are our experiences not the same but neither are our goals or the skills necessary to attain them. You have a very complex goal: a complete suspension of disbelief and a "natural" sound which is as close to live music as humanly possible. As a minimum the skills you will need to attain this is a firm understanding of what real live music actually sounds like and an ability to discern any micro distortions which detract from that. Then you have to be able to identify what is causing the distortions and have a way to minimize them without screwing up something else. As you say everything is connected.This is the absolute hardest journey to get right. Someone with a goal of extreme bass slam or of warming up poorly recorded pop music to make it sound better will need far fewer skills. Neither is right or wrong per se. We are talking about the joy we receive from our systems in this hobby. It's easy to assume everyone wants what we want but this is actually rarely the case. Having read a number of your posts I can tell you and I are similar. I totally agree about herd mentality especially with respect to price. The most ridiculous article I have ever read regarding audio was about the "myth of diminishing returns" I'm certain a whole lot of our far east colleagues agree with this. People buy because it is more expensive. I won't name names but we both know a lot of uber expensive darlings that are actually noticeably inferior to products half their price. It starts the same. A "review" or a first listen at a show about an amazing new product. Suddenly posts on forums (this and others) from people verifying how amazing the product is appear and for a period of time this product is considered among the best of the best. Reviewers fawn. A deep look at this product shows nothing unique. Off the shelf drivers. Mediocre measurements. Etc. There is not, nor will there ever be, a substitute for going and listening for yourself and deciding for yourself. You will need a good dedicated dealer to do this who pays extreme attention to set up.
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Well Jim, I did a whole video arguing there are in fact, no diminishing returns.

I made that statement after hearing the Magico M9s which were not an incremental improvement over $300K speakers. There really was twice the musical engagement.

Diminishing returns imho is an escape clause and crutch for people who don't have the means to buy the very best.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Well Jim, I did a whole video arguing there are in fact, no diminishing returns.

I made that statement after hearing the Magico M9s which were not an incremental improvement over $300K speakers. There really was twice the musical engagement.

Diminishing returns imho is an escape clause and crutch for people who don't have the means to buy the very best.

What amplifiers on the M9 ...?

 

[Charles S]

This particular thread was to ask the question: Which did the Forum think was the better speaker, the Alexx V or Orion? This is a very reasonable question. Rockport is a fine well respected loudspeaker company. The Orion is certainly competitive with the Alexx V. However, it is not competitive with an XVX, neither is the Lyra which is only marginally better than the Orion. Both are extremely fine superbly made 3-way speakers that will fit into rooms an XVX could not fit. The XVX has a super tweeter, tweeter, upper midrange, two lower 7" lower midranges, and much larger woofers and bass cabinet than the Lyra. It is almost infinitely adjustable thanks to its Chronosonic Micrometer Adjustment System which is mor expensive in price (230K) than the entire Lyra speaker, much less the Orion. The XVX can move much more air than either speaker and, will have much lower distortion at given sound pressure levels, especially louder levels. The XVX drivers, especially the Quadramag midranges are universally recognized as either the best or among the best, period. The bass is absolutely visceral, but you almost never even see the woofers move even with the biggest bass blast. When I first got the speaker, I thought there was something wrong wih the woofers because I never saw them move. There is no way that either speaker can even remotely match an XVX in the bass in bass extension or visceral impact. Again, the XVX is a vastly larger more complex 5-way speaker which is in the same league as the WAMM Master Chronosonic or M9, making it one of the very best values in the ultra-high end marketplace

 

[Ron Resnick]

In general, however, the worldwide consensus is most definitely on the side of the Wilson XVX, AlexxV, and AlexiaV, which next to Focal is the largest seller by far.

I think sales correlates highly with the number of dealers. I think sales correlates highly with marketing and advertising budget.

I don't think sales correlates highly with subjective sound quality.

 

[JiminGa]

Sorry Lee all things in life with exception of love and its many incarnations are subject to the laws of diminishing returns. I say this from a background in both economics and science. In musical reproduction no technology exists to create a magical step function in speaker design between 300k and 750k. Not even in the M9. I have no doubt it is spectacular but it is not magic.Its science. Its a box with drivers. If a cabinet is 97% inert for 100k and its 99% inert for 700k then each 1% improvement after 100k costs 7x the cost of the improvements for the first 100k. That is the very definition of a diminishing return. How about frequency response? Twice as linear as a 300k speaker? Really? OK, how can we quantify the enjoyment (return) of a 750k speaker ? 0 dollars give nothing. $10 static. $1000 decent music you can enjoy with your fiends or unwind with a drink with. $10,000 and now it sounds spooky real and plays louder and deeper. $100,000 and now its even bigger but it is also much more accurate as well and you can now be fooled into believing the musicians are in the room with you. $350,000 now you can fill a huge room. $750,000 and now its even better. Maybe. This again is the very definition of diminishing returns. An asymptotic graph. There is no way to quantify enjoyment but my guess is that for most people the biggest step is going from static to music.Now Lee, it certainly is possible that you get much more enjoyment from the last 450k in a speaker than the first 300k. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. The industry you write about would certainly love people to believe it to be true. Accusing those who disagree with you as needing some excuse or a crutch because they really can't afford it and are somehow jealous is both childish and shameful..I could put a set of M9s in every room of my house if i wanted to. You think only "poor" people believe in diminishing returns? Economists and scientists believe in them just like we believe in oxygen and gravity.

 

[Lee]

What amplifiers on the M9 ...?

Pilium mono blocks.

 

[Lee]

Sorry Lee all things in life with exception of love and its many incarnations are subject to the laws of diminishing returns. I say this from a background in both economics and science. In musical reproduction no technology exists to create a magical step function in speaker design between 300k and 750k. Not even in the M9. I have no doubt it is spectacular but it is not magic.Its science. Its a box with drivers. If a cabinet is 97% inert for 100k and its 99% inert for 700k then each 1% improvement after 100k costs 7x the cost of the improvements for the first 100k. That is the very definition of a diminishing return. How about frequency response? Twice as linear as a 300k speaker? Really? OK, how can we quantify the enjoyment (return) of a 750k speaker ? 0 dollars give nothing. $10 static. $1000 decent music you can enjoy with your fiends or unwind with a drink with. $10,000 and now it sounds spooky real and plays louder and deeper. $100,000 and now its even bigger but it is also much more accurate as well and you can now be fooled into believing the musicians are in the room with you. $350,000 now you can fill a huge room. $750,000 and now its even better. Maybe. This again is the very definition of diminishing returns. An asymptotic graph. There is no way to quantify enjoyment but my guess is that for most people the biggest step is going from static to music.Now Lee, it certainly is possible that you get much more enjoyment from the last 450k in a speaker than the first 300k. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it. The industry you write about would certainly love people to believe it to be true. Accusing those who disagree with you as needing some excuse or a crutch because they really can't afford it and are somehow jealous is both childish and shameful..I could put a set of M9s in every room of my house if i wanted to. You think only "poor" people believe in diminishing returns? Economists and scientists believe in them just like we believe in oxygen and gravity.

In my video I speak to the fact that while measurements might indicate incremental improvement, the level of musical engagement is well beyond incremental.

In other words, a 5% increase in say overall driver performance might mean a 50% jump in perceived realism.

Also, in my video the point was not to diminish people with less spending power but a recognition that LDR is used to justify stopping at a certain level of spend. I think it’s more honest to recognize that more enjoyment and musical engagement is possible but one is stopping at a level that is determined by a variety of personal goals, not a real tapering off of performance.

 

[Lee]

I would give the Continuum Caliburn as an example of LDR not being accurate. As a $150K turntable, it is engineered well to remove noise and it makes for an exhilirating source that is super quiet and extracts everything out of the grooves. Is it incremental to a $50K TechDas Airforce 3PS? No. The AF3PS is an amazing table and I would be happy with that, but the Caliburn is a level above.

The danger of something like the Law of Diminishing Returns is that it “feels true” and many maybe don’t get an opportunity to hear the M9s or other expensive gear that counters the LDR myth.

I felt LDR was probably accurate until I got to hear some really nice systems. Now I think it’s a fugazi.

And if you still believe it to be true, what’s the level where diminishing returns kick in?

And shouldn’t there be a speaker that matches or almost matches the Magico M9? If so, what is it?

 

[Lee]

It’s the old audiophile joke…

“If you spent more than me, you spent too much.”

“If you spent less than me, you didn’t spend enough.”

 

[andromedaaudio]

I thought the audiophile saying goes like this :

' If you dont read audiophile magazines at age 25 you have no heart , if you still read them at age 35 you have no head "

 

[andromedaaudio]

And shouldn’t there be a speaker that matches or almost matches the Magico M9? If so, what is it?

You obviously didnt take the time to read the whole thread .
Kharma and rockport have been mentioned already.
Avantgarde TRIO G3 ITRON with 2 bass horns

Quality over quantity

 

[Lee]

You obviously didnt take the time to read the whole thread .
Kharma and rockport have been mentioned already.
Avantgarde TRIO G3 ITRON with 2 bass horns

Quality over quantity

I have heard all the Rockports and the Avantgarde but none compare to the M9.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have heard all the Rockports and the Avantgarde but none compare to the M9

I have heard the M7 .
Just more of the same thing , how ever i think they deserve tubes , they were driven by D agostino relentless pre power when i heard them

 

[Lee]

I have heard the M7 .
Just more of the same thing , how ever i think they deserve tubes , they were driven by D agostino relentless pre power when i heard them

The Magico M9 sounded "spooky real" to me in Hayward. One of the things they do exceptionally well is a very lifelike layering of vocals on choral works like the Voces 8 piece Alon played for me. I have not heard the same at the same realism level from the other speakers you mention.

Another example is maybe Wilson Audio's line which I am very familiar with. Is the XVX Chronosonic some 3X better than the Alexx V? Yes, absolutely if you are speaking to musical engagement.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The Magico M9 sounded "spooky real" to me in Hayward. One of the things they do exceptionally well is a very lifelike layering of vocals on choral works like the Voces 8 piece Alon played for me. I have not heard the same at the same realism level from the other speakers you mention.

Another example is maybe Wilson Audio's line which I am very familiar with. Is the XVX Chronosonic some 3X better than the Alexx V? Yes, absolutely if you are speaking to musical engagement.

Loudspeakers is a past stage already afaik .

To really up the SQ quality these days you better invest in digital

 

[Lee]

Loudspeakers is a past stage already afaik .

To really up the SQ quality these days you better invest in digital

And in digital sources you see vast improvements in musical engagement as you move up the line as well.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Diminishing returns imho is an escape clause and crutch for people who don't have the means to buy the very best.

American logic ,
Look mine is bigger lol.

The one with the most toys wins ( George Carlin)

If you state terms like this in reviews i might start to read them again , i like a bit of humor

 

[Elliot G.]

This particular thread was to ask the question: Which did the Forum think was the better speaker, the Alexx V or Orion? This is a very reasonable question. Rockport is a fine well respected loudspeaker company. The Orion is certainly competitive with the Alexx V. However, it is not competitive with an XVX, neither is the Lyra which is only marginally better than the Orion. Both are extremely fine superbly made 3-way speakers that will fit into rooms an XVX could not fit. The XVX has a super tweeter, tweeter, upper midrange, two lower 7" lower midranges, and much larger woofers and bass cabinet than the Lyra. It is almost infinitely adjustable thanks to its Chronosonic Micrometer Adjustment System which is mor expensive in price (230K) than the entire Lyra speaker, much less the Orion. The XVX can move much more air than either speaker and, will have much lower distortion at given sound pressure levels, especially louder levels. The XVX drivers, especially the Quadramag midranges are universally recognized as either the best or among the best, period. The bass is absolutely visceral, but you almost never even see the woofers move even with the biggest bass blast. When I first got the speaker, I thought there was something wrong wih the woofers because I never saw them move. There is no way that either speaker can even remotely match an XVX in the bass in bass extension or visceral impact. Again, the XVX is a vastly larger more complex 5-way speaker which is in the same league as the WAMM Master Chronosonic or M9, making it one of the very best values in the ultra-high end marketplace

Dear Charles, its great that you like your speakers however none of what you stated above are the real reasons that they are "better". Thos e are advertising and marketing boilerplate. All big speakers are not better than all smaller speakers. Micrometer adjustments is just absurd as a benefit since they are the only ones that do it and if it was truly better others woiuld copy it. It is after all a business. The number of drivers is totally meaningless and the rest of your points are ONLY your opinion based on Wilsons adds. The fact that it is more expensive is totally unimportant other than to those who judge quality via price. This again has nothing to do with sound quality or quality at all. Things "recognized as best" again marketing propoganda.
We get it you like your speakers and congratulations on the purchase but the rest is a rationalization not proof of anything. By the way the set up and installation of those speakers is probably more difficult and critical than most any others out there so if you didn't get a seriously qualified person to do it they aren't going to be set up properly. For those of us who have heard them in multiple locations and set up by multiple people this service makes a HUGE difference.
You opinion of the sound is certainly viable as to your viewpoint from the literature quotes not so much.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The Magico M9 sounded "spooky real" to me in Hayward. One of the things they do exceptionally well is a very lifelike layering of vocals on choral works like the Voces 8 piece Alon played for me. I have not heard the same at the same realism level from the other speakers you mention.

How do you feel it compares to the Gryphon Kodo?

 

[Elliot G.]

How do you feel it compares to the Gryphon Kodo?

Comparing these things in different rooms, different gear, and different set ups one can only consume the entire experience not just the one piece. I think this is really unreal that people want definitive answers to questions for so many variables. There are no easy answers SORRY.
If one is asking if the Magico set up at Magico's sound room is better than the Gryphon at Munich that I can understand to some degree but since Gryphon speakers are not in the Magico sound room , driven by the same gear , set up by the same people this question is just unanswerable other than by complete speculation.
I have a client that just bought a pair of M7 speakers. They are beautiful, look great, he loves them . They are in his bedroom. The gear is all top shelf. Does the system sound good? well I guess that depends on your point of view in relation to what?
Does it come close to what I have in my sound room? or Mike Lavigne's room? Or Marty's room? or Carlos's room?
Hello no. Does that mean the speaker is not good? Of course not.
So the conclusion of this means NOTHING