Wilson Alexx V vs Rockport Orion

[Ron Resnick]

In other words, a 5% increase in say overall driver performance might mean a 50% jump in perceived realism.

The problem with this is that it has no concrete or relatable meaning, except for how each of us, individually, idiosyncratically, feels about it. We are right back to the incomparability of interpersonal utility.

The idea of disproving the law of diminishing returns as it applies to high-end audio is just a hopeless morass.

Imagine trying to prove to other people in a convincing and meaningfully quantifiable way that using a certain kind of sugar in ice cream makes it taste 50% better.

This in no way whatsoever diminishes or invalidates your personal feeling that a 5% increase in overall driver performance might mean a 50% jump in perceived realism. That is totally valid for yourself, and I respect and accept your quantification.

It just means that it's impossible to generalize, and it cannot be used to disprove the law of diminishing returns as a matter of general applicability.

 

[Elliot G.]

Bah humbug since when can we measure reality in percentages? This is marketing BS, simple and pure. Companies use this crap to try to influence consumers . I cant ever imagine saying to a potential client that doing this will make a 7,5 percent difference in your overall satisfaction.
THis is total nonsense.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The best advice for people is .... go hear it for yourself .
Thats why i love brick n mortar stores .

It says more then a thousand words

 

[Ron Resnick]

Comparing these things in different rooms, different gear, and different set ups one can only consume the entire experience not just the one piece. I think this is really unreal that people want definitive answers to questions for so many variables. There are no easy answers SORRY.

So the conclusion of this means NOTHING

This proves too much. You have just indicted almost all listening impressions and almost everything we enjoy discussing as hobbyists on WBF. I am not suggesting Lee's answer means all of the things you are assuming incorrectly that I think it means.

Of course all of those qualifications apply. How many times have I written that unless everything is identical (same room, same acoustic treatment, same components, same cables, same tweaks, same adjustments, etc.) and only one (1) component change or cable change or position change or footer change or VTA adjustment is made can the comparison be considered to be analytically and methodologically valid?

But that's not what I'm asking Lee here. Did I suggest that Lee's answer to my question is anything other than his personal, subjective opinion in an obviously methodologically invalid comparison situation?

I'm not asking about anything objective. I'm not asking about anything of general applicability.

With all of your correct qualifications and caveats -- with which I totally agree if we are talking about an analytically and methodologically valid comparison -- which I am not -- Lee has spent a lot of time in front of Hugh's Kodo system, and his subjective, personal comparative impression is interesting to me.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Another example is maybe Wilson Audio's line which I am very familiar with. Is the XVX Chronosonic some 3X better than the Alexx V? Yes, absolutely if you are speaking to musical engagement.

Lee , even mine do better bass then the Chronosonic .

Best bass in munich by a long shot 3 years in a row
Brodmann LS

 

[Elliot G.]

This proves too much. You have just indicted almost all listening impressions and almost everything we enjoy discussing as hobbyists on WBF. I am not suggesting Lee's answer means all of the things you are assuming incorrectly that I or anyone else thinks it means.

Of course all of those qualifications apply. How many times have I written that unless everything is identical (same room, same acoustic treatment, same components, same cables, same tweaks, same adjustments, etc.) and only one (1) component change or cable change or position change or footer change or VTA adjustment is made can the comparison be considered to be analytically and methodologically valid?

But that's not what I'm asking Lee here. Did I suggest that Lee's answer to my question is anything other than his personal, subjective opinion in an obviously methodologically invalid comparison situation?

I'm not asking about anything objective. I'm not asking about anything of general applicability.

With all of your correct qualifications and caveats -- with which I totally agree if we are talking about an analytically and methodologically valid comparison -- which I am not -- Lee has spent a lot of time in front of Hugh's Kodo system, and his subjective, personal comparative impression is interesting to me.

then the question should be which system do you prefer no? Since it is more than just the speakers and in fact everything is totally different. .
Audio is systematic and that is how we absorb it. Virtually none of it exists on its own. I think that this is the way it should be looked at and discussed. There are no silver bullets and there are no universal truths for everyone. This includes me and what I sell.

 

[Elliot G.]

Lee , even mine do better bass then the Chronosonic .

Best bass in munich by a long shot 3 years in a row
Brodmann LS


View attachment 136853

you certainly won the " most wires in a room" LOL

 

[andromedaaudio]

you certainly won the " most wires in a room" LOL

Yeah , coming from a cable skeptic like myself , i can change my mind in a heart beat apparently
Plus i didnt trip over the wires which is a good thing

But hey if it sounds good it sounds good , same goes for the active stand alone bass .
I was a skeptic for many years but i suppose its all about execution after all

 

[Ron Resnick]

then the question should be which system do you prefer no?

Yes; this is correct.

There are no silver bullets and there are no universal truths for everyone.

I agree!

 

[Elliot G.]

Yeah , coming from a cable skeptic like myself , i can change my mind in a heart beat apparently
Plus i didnt trip over the wires which is a good thing

But hey if it sounds good it sounds good , same goes for the active stand alone bass .
I was a skeptic for many years but i suppose its all about execution after all

it was wire Palooza in that room for sure

 

[JiminGa]

Lee, to be fair to you I didn't say that the M9s aren't the best speaker on earth. I have no idea. I am also not making an ASR argument per se precisely because as you point out 5% changes can create disproportionate "enjoyment". What I would say is that 5% changes occur throughout the curve starting from 0 dollars. As such just getting the basic design correct and executing it properly makes a huge difference to reproduced sound. There are $5,000 speakers that sound proportionately much better than a clock radio as opposed to the differences between a 300k and 750k speaker. The next step function in reproduced sound will not come from incremental improvements at prices an order of magnitude higher to achieve them. All speakers in existence today are flawed because the technology doesn't exist yet to break through to a new paradigm. You can keep putting horses on a wagon but when someone invents a car you're going to wonder why you paid for 20 horses instead of two which got you to the same places a whole lot cheaper. Ron, regrettably Elliot has a point.. Even a millimeter makes a difference in speaker positioning. If you review speaker x and they nailed the set up it will sound better than speaker y where they didn't. You would falsely assume x is better. Most people who are unsatisfied with their sound buy a new cable or a DAC or a preamp trying to fix it. That's because very few people can really nail it(even well known ones) but there is always something new to buy. That makes money. There is no money in nailing set ups for dealers because it is very time/labor intensive. Only the best can do it. Reviewers - forget it. Most of the time even they have no idea what they are listening to. Of course fatal flaws and general tonality will present themselves. We haven't even touched upon system synergy. Every piece affects the sound. Is everything optimized for the speaker and the room? Ah yes, the room. Any doubts M9s sound great in Alons new room? How about in a smallish room with 8 foot ceiling? How about doors and windows? What if it looks symmetrical but there are studs behind one wall and cinderblock behind another? It goes on and on. I know this is everyones passion here especially yours and I respect that but we have to acknowledge our limitations. Reviews are still helpful and of course I still read them. What I personally find most helpful/interesting Ron are the interviews you do which get into the designers philosophies. Way better than the usual suspects that always end up with : " if you are shopping in this price range make sure you listen to these before you buy. Highly recommended"

 

[Mike Lavigne]

you certainly won the " most wires in a room" LOL

nope. not even remotely close. Wild Thing

 

[andromedaaudio]

it was wire Palooza in that room for sure

Off course if it was my business i d go for TRI wiring as a standard option .
The cables probably cost as much as the rest of the set up

 

[Elliot G.]

nope. not even remotely close. Wild Thing


View attachment 136866

I should have said at the show in Munich last time LOL . Mike you win...I guess

 

[jbrrp1]

The winner might be lying behind the ESD racks with their crazy $3mm system. I meant to get a photo last spring at Axpona of the insane snake pit, but neglected to do so. They clearly weren't too worried about dielectric and EM effects.

 

[Elliot G.]

Lee, to be fair to you I didn't say that the M9s aren't the best speaker on earth. I have no idea. I am also not making an ASR argument per se precisely because as you point out 5% changes can create disproportionate "enjoyment". What I would say is that 5% changes occur throughout the curve starting from 0 dollars. As such just getting the basic design correct and executing it properly makes a huge difference to reproduced sound. There are $5,000 speakers that sound proportionately much better than a clock radio as opposed to the differences between a 300k and 750k speaker. The next step function in reproduced sound will not come from incremental improvements at prices an order of magnitude higher to achieve them. All speakers in existence today are flawed because the technology doesn't exist yet to break through to a new paradigm. You can keep putting horses on a wagon but when someone invents a car you're going to wonder why you paid for 20 horses instead of two which got you to the same places a whole lot cheaper. Ron, regrettably Elliot has a point.. Even a millimeter makes a difference in speaker positioning. If you review speaker x and they nailed the set up it will sound better than speaker y where they didn't. You would falsely assume x is better. Most people who are unsatisfied with their sound buy a new cable or a DAC or a preamp trying to fix it. That's because very few people can really nail it(even well known ones) but there is always something new to buy. That makes money. There is no money in nailing set ups for dealers because it is very time/labor intensive. Only the best can do it. Reviewers - forget it. Most of the time even they have no idea what they are listening to. Of course fatal flaws and general tonality will present themselves. We haven't even touched upon system synergy. Every piece affects the sound. Is everything optimized for the speaker and the room? Ah yes, the room. Any doubts M9s sound great in Alons new room? How about in a smallish room with 8 foot ceiling? How about doors and windows? What if it looks symmetrical but there are studs behind one wall and cinderblock behind another? It goes on and on. I know this is everyones passion here especially yours and I respect that but we have to acknowledge our limitations. Reviews are still helpful and of course I still read them. What I personally find most helpful/interesting Ron are the interviews you do which get into the designers philosophies. Way better than the usual suspects that always end up with : " if you are shopping in this price range make sure you listen to these before you buy. Highly recommended"

I really think that the entire Industry makes way too much about who has the best stuff rather than who can make great sound, I say to my clients all the time to buy what you have heard and love. If it is not mine then thats fine but just buying boxes and boxes because of marketing or more likely the "deal" leads to bad sound, unsatisfied buyers and lots of searching for something to repair or fix what many times is self inflicted, To quote the great Dirty Harry "A man's got to know his limitations" The internet has made experts of everyone yet experts are very hard to find! That is my words of wisdom for today ( ok I am laughing at myself now) My father taught me figure out from whom you should buy before you choose what to buy. Sometimes paying more is cheaper

 

[dbeau]

Lee, to be fair to you I didn't say that the M9s aren't the best speaker on earth. I have no idea. I am also not making an ASR argument per se precisely because as you point out 5% changes can create disproportionate "enjoyment". What I would say is that 5% changes occur throughout the curve starting from 0 dollars. As such just getting the basic design correct and executing it properly makes a huge difference to reproduced sound. There are $5,000 speakers that sound proportionately much better than a clock radio as opposed to the differences between a 300k and 750k speaker. The next step function in reproduced sound will not come from incremental improvements at prices an order of magnitude higher to achieve them. All speakers in existence today are flawed because the technology doesn't exist yet to break through to a new paradigm. You can keep putting horses on a wagon but when someone invents a car you're going to wonder why you paid for 20 horses instead of two which got you to the same places a whole lot cheaper. Ron, regrettably Elliot has a point.. Even a millimeter makes a difference in speaker positioning. If you review speaker x and they nailed the set up it will sound better than speaker y where they didn't. You would falsely assume x is better. Most people who are unsatisfied with their sound buy a new cable or a DAC or a preamp trying to fix it. That's because very few people can really nail it(even well known ones) but there is always something new to buy. That makes money. There is no money in nailing set ups for dealers because it is very time/labor intensive. Only the best can do it. Reviewers - forget it. Most of the time even they have no idea what they are listening to. Of course fatal flaws and general tonality will present themselves. We haven't even touched upon system synergy. Every piece affects the sound. Is everything optimized for the speaker and the room? Ah yes, the room. Any doubts M9s sound great in Alons new room? How about in a smallish room with 8 foot ceiling? How about doors and windows? What if it looks symmetrical but there are studs behind one wall and cinderblock behind another? It goes on and on. I know this is everyones passion here especially yours and I respect that but we have to acknowledge our limitations. Reviews are still helpful and of course I still read them. What I personally find most helpful/interesting Ron are the interviews you do which get into the designers philosophies. Way better than the usual suspects that always end up with : " if you are shopping in this price range make sure you listen to these before you buy. Highly recommended"

wisdom speaks

 

[Lee]

How do you feel it compares to the Gryphon Kodo?

It’s better but I like Hugh’s setup a lot.

 

[Lee]

The problem with this is that it has no concrete or relatable meaning, except for how each of us, individually, idiosyncratically, feels about it. We are right back to the incomparability of interpersonal utility.

The idea of disproving the law of diminishing returns as it applies to high-end audio is just a hopeless morass.

Imagine trying to prove to other people in a convincing and meaningfully quantifiable way that using a certain kind of sugar in ice cream makes it taste 50% better.

This in no way whatsoever diminishes or invalidates your personal feeling that a 5% increase in overall driver performance might mean a 50% jump in perceived realism. That is totally valid for yourself, and I respect and accept your quantification.

It just means that it's impossible to generalize, and it cannot be used to disprove the law of diminishing returns as a matter of general applicability.

Ron,

I agree with you on a couple of things herein. It’s very hard to quantify how much a driver has improved and it’s rather impossible to definitively prove that there was a 50% increase in realism. However, as you suggest, that doesn’t invalidate my honest opinion that there were significant gains in realism and musical engagement of say an M9 pair over an M6 pair.

It would of course be nice if we could precisely measure both things so we could definitely tell and even have a scale of X extra dollars gets you a realism improvement of Y happiness units.

Nonetheless, based on my experience hearing a wide variety of great systems, I believe you often do get what you pay for in terms of musical engagement.

 

[Lee]

Lee , even mine do better bass then the Chronosonic .

Best bass in munich by a long shot 3 years in a row
Brodmann LS


View attachment 136853

Says you, the speaker designer.