Lee, to be fair to you I didn't say that the M9s aren't the best speaker on earth. I have no idea. I am also not making an ASR argument per se precisely because as you point out 5% changes can create disproportionate "enjoyment". What I would say is that 5% changes occur throughout the curve starting from 0 dollars. As such just getting the basic design correct and executing it properly makes a huge difference to reproduced sound. There are $5,000 speakers that sound proportionately much better than a clock radio as opposed to the differences between a 300k and 750k speaker. The next step function in reproduced sound will not come from incremental improvements at prices an order of magnitude higher to achieve them. All speakers in existence today are flawed because the technology doesn't exist yet to break through to a new paradigm. You can keep putting horses on a wagon but when someone invents a car you're going to wonder why you paid for 20 horses instead of two which got you to the same places a whole lot cheaper. Ron, regrettably Elliot has a point.. Even a millimeter makes a difference in speaker positioning. If you review speaker x and they nailed the set up it will sound better than speaker y where they didn't. You would falsely assume x is better. Most people who are unsatisfied with their sound buy a new cable or a DAC or a preamp trying to fix it. That's because very few people can really nail it(even well known ones) but there is always something new to buy. That makes money. There is no money in nailing set ups for dealers because it is very time/labor intensive. Only the best can do it. Reviewers - forget it. Most of the time even they have no idea what they are listening to. Of course fatal flaws and general tonality will present themselves. We haven't even touched upon system synergy. Every piece affects the sound. Is everything optimized for the speaker and the room? Ah yes, the room. Any doubts M9s sound great in Alons new room? How about in a smallish room with 8 foot ceiling? How about doors and windows? What if it looks symmetrical but there are studs behind one wall and cinderblock behind another? It goes on and on. I know this is everyones passion here especially yours and I respect that but we have to acknowledge our limitations. Reviews are still helpful and of course I still read them. What I personally find most helpful/interesting Ron are the interviews you do which get into the designers philosophies. Way better than the usual suspects that always end up with : " if you are shopping in this price range make sure you listen to these before you buy. Highly recommended"
1. Of course, when judging LDR you need to listen to optimized setups, ideally setup by the Stirling and Jim Smiths of the world. Otherwise, and I think Elliot hints at this, it’s comparing apples and oranges.
2. The setup includes having a proper room that is properly treated. The M9s are in a custom built room from great acoustic engineers as is Hugh’s flagship Gryphon system.
3. You say, “All speakers in existence today are flawed because the technology doesn't exist yet to break through to a new paradigm.”. I don’t think its really about a new paradigm but about incremental improvements in tech that greatly improve sonic realism and engagement. In my own experience, I had great sound with Alexia 2 speakers but the Alexia Vs with 31 total design changes are much more open and clear and have better bass. I would say for a $13K increase in price, I am hearing 40% better sound. If you listen M9s in Alon’s room the amount of realism and near perfection in every area from treble to mids to bass to soundstage to macro/micro dynamics to resolution is really astonishing (And I’m a Wilson guy!). Are they seven times the performance of the M6? I would have to say yes. Not many of us will spend $750K on speakers but I have to admit it would be money well spent, at least for an audiophile.
4. I have stated many times here and on Steve Hoffman’s forum that reviews are guides. Use them to create a short list but ideally you should listen to every product under consideration and hopefully one has a great dealer that will allow you to take the product home and hear it in your own system.
5. An example of incremental improvements leading to greater change in engagement are the new capacitors from Wilson Audio. They definitely added to more openness and resolution over the Alexia 2s. They have allowed me to play a record and get lost in the music more readily than the otherwise fine Alexia 2s I had before. In fact, I would say that in almost every area technology has marched on. The V material in my Alexia Vs is a new phenolic formula that improves sound. Things are really getting better all the time, even if some brands stagnate or there are models we can point to that are not innovative from what came before.
I really think that the entire Industry makes way too much about who has the best stuff rather than who can make great sound, I say to my clients all the time to buy what you have heard and love. If it is not mine then thats fine but just buying boxes and boxes because of marketing or more likely the "deal" leads to bad sound, unsatisfied buyers and lots of searching for something to repair or fix what many times is self inflicted, To quote the great Dirty Harry "A man's got to know his limitations" The internet has made experts of everyone yet experts are very hard to find! That is my words of wisdom for today ( ok I am laughing at myself now) My father taught me figure out from whom you should buy before you choose what to buy. Sometimes paying more is cheaper
This echos our ongoing discussions around how important and critical proper setup is. A good setup guy can make a $2K pair of magnepans sound amazing. A bad setup guy can make $750K M9s sound like a $2K pair of magnepans.
This echos our ongoing discussions around how important and critical proper setup is. A good setup guy can make a $2K pair of magnepans sound amazing. A bad setup guy can make $750K M9s sound like a $2K pair of magnepans.
You might get Sterling to do something about the Munich Nagra room then .
Consistently very bad sound no matter what speakerbrand, 3 years in a row.
I have no idea who sets that up , probably the amplification plays a large part
This echos our ongoing discussions around how important and critical proper setup is. A good setup guy can make a $2K pair of magnepans sound amazing. A bad setup guy can make $750K M9s sound like a $2K pair of magnepans.
Agreed but a lot if not most of the spaces at Axpona are truly terrible and even the best can suffer. That is not an excuse just reality. Our room at CAPFEST is way better and we always make good sound there. Axpona , which I love , we get maybe good sound trying hard but never more.
You might get Sterling to do something about the Munich Nagra room then .
Consistently very bad sound no matter what speakerbrand, 3 years in a row.
I have no idea who sets that up , probably the amplification plays a large part
Munich does get some good sounding rooms, IMO far better than what is accomplished at Axpona. Thats the rooms first and the crews second BTW. Even Stirling can only do so much in a terrible environment , he is excellent but not other worldly
I own an XVX. I wouldn't remotely consider any Rockport speaker over it. Robert Harley Editor of TAS removed the Lyra and replaced it with his XVX which he currently still uses as his reference. He recently reviewed the Orion but he did not even compare it to his XVX, which will surpass either the Lyra or Orion in every sonic category. Neither speaker is in the same league as an XVX. He has heard all three speakers in his custom built listening room for months of extensive listening and is a friend of AP of Rockport. I trust his ears and evaluations. The Orion is a 3-way speaker. I would place it in the class as the Alexia V. Since his Orion review he has reviewed numerous extremely expensive statement level loud speakers and the XVX remains his reference. There is a reason for this. The XVX has the ability to make almost any recording sound good. It is an extremely musical loudspeaker. It wants to please the listener unlike many loudspeakers yet it remains incredibly resolving and its dynamic ability is simply incredible. I It sounds good with tubes and SS gear. It is a reviewer's ideal loudspeaker and is also Michael Fremer's long standing reference. It reproduces live performances at totally realistic SP levels without a hint of strain. The XVX is -6dB at 11 Hz and will produce 110dB bass tone at 24 Hz with 1.5% distortion. Distortion measurements at reasonable sound pressure levels are inaudible 20 cycles to 20 thousand cycles. Demos are notoriously unreliable for judging a speaker. Volume 15 / Number 3 July - Sept 2021 MC extensive review HFC.
The Magico M9 is the realization of the accumulated knowledge and sophisticated technologies Magico has developed over the past 25 years.
www.theabsolutesound.com
"Overall, I have to say that the Magico M9 is the best-sounding loudspeaker I’ve heard. It represents the ultimate realization of the accumulated knowledge and sophisticated technologies Magico has developed over the past 25 years, along with some remarkable innovations that push the M9’s performance to an unprecedented level." -- Robert Harley, May 2022 ;-)
Riddle me this ?
How come the M9 didn't make it to RH? Could it be something.... I dont know .......maybe.......political. Don't want to be a conspiracy theorist I leave that to Caesar but its ::::::::::::::::very interesting:::::::::::
Riddle me this ?
How come the M9 didn't make it to RH? Could it be something.... I dont know .......maybe.......political. Don't want to be a conspiracy theorist I leave that to Caesar but its ::::::::::::::::very interesting:::::::::::
Riddle me this ?
How come the M9 didn't make it to RH? Could it be something.... I dont know .......maybe.......political. Don't want to be a conspiracy theorist I leave that to Caesar but its ::::::::::::::::very interesting:::::::::::
I own an XVX. I wouldn't remotely consider any Rockport speaker over it. Robert Harley Editor of TAS removed the Lyra and replaced it with his XVX which he currently still uses as his reference. He recently reviewed the Orion but he did not even compare it to his XVX, which will surpass either the Lyra or Orion in every sonic category. Neither speaker is in the same league as an XVX. He has heard all three speakers in his custom built listening room for months of extensive listening and is a friend of AP of Rockport. I trust his ears and evaluations. The Orion is a 3-way speaker. I would place it in the class as the Alexia V. Since his Orion review he has reviewed numerous extremely expensive statement level loud speakers and the XVX remains his reference. There is a reason for this. The XVX has the ability to make almost any recording sound good. It is an extremely musical loudspeaker. It wants to please the listener unlike many loudspeakers yet it remains incredibly resolving and its dynamic ability is simply incredible. I It sounds good with tubes and SS gear. It is a reviewer's ideal loudspeaker and is also Michael Fremer's long standing reference. It reproduces live performances at totally realistic SP levels without a hint of strain. The XVX is -6dB at 11 Hz and will produce 110dB bass tone at 24 Hz with 1.5% distortion. Distortion measurements at reasonable sound pressure levels are inaudible 20 cycles to 20 thousand cycles. Demos are notoriously unreliable for judging a speaker. Volume 15 / Number 3 July - Sept 2021 MC extensive review HFC.
Another note on Wilson: at a recent axpona, they had wilson alexx with d'agostino relentless in a Million dollar system.
It was very painful for someone who hates hi-fi sound, but I forced myself to stay in the room for a number of songs, just watching the crowd: Not a single person was transfixed by that system! No one's jaw was dropped. And no one was in the flow.
People would walk in, listen to a song or two, and walk out. Most walked past that million dollar system like they would walk past the toilet paper aisle at Costco. But I am sure many "audio journalists" gave that system the Best of Show award.
Another note on Wilson: at a recent axpona, they had wilson alexx with d'agostino relentless in a Million dollar system.
It was very painful for someone who hates hi-fi sound, but I forced myself to stay in the room for a number of songs, just watching the crowd: Not a single person was transfixed by that system! No one's jaw was dropped. And no one was in the flow.
People would walk in, listen to a song or two, and walk out. Most walked past that million dollar system like they would walk past the toilet paper aisle at Costco. But I am sure many "audio journalists" gave that system the Best of Show award.
I had a similar experience at LSAF with Stenheim speakers, forgot the system (that's how memorable it was). It was awful, no highs (checked in multiple seats), no depth, hifi sounding. I went back day 2 to see if they'd made some changes to rectify, but same horrible sound. Most folks walked in for a song and left. I know of a popular reviewer who sat in front of me who gave the system rave reviews.
Charles, RH never “ replaced” the Lyra. It was never his to replace. He only had it in to review. As far as I know Josh has never given an industry accommodation to a reviewer and no way RH is paying retail. The very first Lyra just came up for resale in the history of its manufacture. No one “ replaces” them. It’s clear you haven’t really taken the time to compare. For the third time: re read the Orion TAS review. He CLEARLY states the Orion and Lyra were two of his favorite speakers. Please just say you’re really happy with your purchase and leave it at that. I’m happy for you
This echos our ongoing discussions around how important and critical proper setup is. A good setup guy can make a $2K pair of magnepans sound amazing. A bad setup guy can make $750K M9s sound like a $2K pair of magnepans.
