Wilson Audio Thor’s Hammer or Master Subsonic Subwoofers

[marty]

Wonder why no one's asked you about time alignment yet ?

david

Probably because it can't be done in the manner described!

BTW, the Geddes system, also known as a a multiple subwoofer swarm, is a method of neutralizing room resonances to optimize frequency response, not time alignment. The method discussed here, namely placing woofers 6 feet behind the mains, is a technique that many of use (including myself), but time alignment? Fuggetabout it. This simply can't be done without dsp. (This is old ground that has been covered ad nauseum in this forum.). However, that doesn't mean that the sonic results can't be sonically pleasing. It's a classic case of "not perfect" but perhaps "darn good".

 

[ddk]

Probably because it can't be done in the manner described!

BTW, the Geddes system, also known as a a multiple subwoofer swarm, is a method of neutralizing room resonances to optimize frequency response, not time alignment. The method discussed here, namely placing woofers 6 feet behind the mains, is a technique that many of use (including myself), but time alignment? Fuggetabout it. This simply can't be done without dsp. (This is old ground that has been covered ad nauseum in this forum.). However, that doesn't mean that the sonic results can't be sonically pleasing. It's a classic case of "not perfect" but perhaps "darn good".

I know but as you mentioned these conversations usually end up there.

david

 

[Folsom]

Wonder why no one's asked you about time alignment yet ?

david

Great, we need that can of bologne opened, sure do...

 

[LL21]

I first heard U571 while living in Northern California’s a friends house who was using a Thigpen Rotary Woofer. In fact Bruce Thigpen flew in on his own plane from Florida for the event. I remember I was standing in the right rear corner when those under water explosives went off. I felt like it was a California earthquake and so much so that I could still feel myself moving many minutes later

Yeesh...there is subterranean...and subterranean. Even if a Thigpen rotary could fit someplace...i cannot imagine having intestines at risk of some obscene signal...as much as it sounds like real fun...i think a couple of massive traditional subs seems like more than plenty.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I think ported versus sealed is another religious debate which has no definitive answer. Both methodologies can sound fantastic. I think the implementation counts more than the theory.

 

[RogerD]

I think ported versus sealed is another religious debate which has no answer. Both methodologies can sound fantastic.

I use both and I would be hard pressed to tell a difference....the bass on a whole is as one.

 

[microstrip]

Probably because it can't be done in the manner described!

BTW, the Geddes system, also known as a a multiple subwoofer swarm, is a method of neutralizing room resonances to optimize frequency response, not time alignment. The method discussed here, namely placing woofers 6 feet behind the mains, is a technique that many of use (including myself), but time alignment? Fuggetabout it. This simply can't be done without dsp. (This is old ground that has been covered ad nauseum in this forum.). However, that doesn't mean that the sonic results can't be sonically pleasing. It's a classic case of "not perfect" but perhaps "darn good".

Surely, but who would care about time alignment at 40 Hz?

 

[LL21]

Not the Wilson Audio Thor’s Hammers or Master Subsonic Subwoofers, but Wilson Audio WatchDogs using the same two WatchDog controlers http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/vtl_wilson_system.htm .

One of the main advantages of using subs with large speakers is being able to put them at a significantly distance from the main speakers, interacting the with room modes in a different manner and exciting the room in the bass with a different pattern - even filling the nulls that no electronic or DSP can fill. Surely in order to use this mode of operation you need a large room - considering that my room is 31 feet long I am very interested in subs, and I am rather pleased with my experiences, both in measurements and in sound quality. The subs are located arout 6 feet behind the main speakers.

For more information on this subject see the section on Geddes work for example at http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/20...fers-to-improve-bass-the-welti-devantie-html/

Hey Micro,

How are your experiments with the Watchdog's going? Most intrigued to see if you decided to delve deeper into the sub-bass world!

 

[microstrip]

Hey Micro,

How are your experiments with the Watchdog's going? Most intrigued to see if you decided to delve deeper into the sub-bass world!

Too many other things to do during the last week - and the coming one will not be better! But, although I got the two controllers and one sub I am still looking for another Watchdog sub, the person who was selling an used one for a nice price did not want to ship to Europe.

 

[LL21]

Too many other things to do during the last week - and the coming one will not be better! But, although I got the two controllers and one sub I am still looking for another Watchdog sub, the person who was selling an used one for a nice price did not want to ship to Europe.

Well, you are getting there for sure...though i wonder if the Watchdogs will lead you to another long-term solution for deep bass...!

Meanwhile, have you settled on amplification? Lamm vs CJ?

You may have seen the ART300 monos on Audiogon...https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9d1ji-conrad-johnson-art-300-anniversary-tube
...just move the taps and 240V ready!

 

[microstrip]

Well, you are getting there for sure...though i wonder if the Watchdogs will lead you to another long-term solution for deep bass...!

Meanwhile, have you settled on amplification? Lamm vs CJ?

You may have seen the ART300 monos on Audiogon...https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9d1ji-conrad-johnson-art-300-anniversary-tube
...just move the taps and 240V ready!

People usually think about level and low bass when considering subs - my interest is mainly bass quality and improvements in airiness and definition. I have found that the most interesting aspect of subs in my room is changing the distribution of bass nodes, as the subs are 2m back from the main speakers.

Currently listening to ARC REF40 + Lamm M1.2's - always successful in the XLF's. SO much I got a second pair of M1.2's to try on the subs!

 

[Folsom]

What subs are you running? I must have missed that.

 

[LL21]

Wilson Watchdogs, i believe.

 

[microstrip]

What subs are you running? I must have missed that.

I was using a pair of JL113mk2 with the CR1 crossover - and it was already a nice improvement. But I want to try an all Wison Audio system, crossovers included.

 

[Folsom]

Ah, duh... I was thinking Watch controller when I read it. I've been reading Ron's thread too much.

 

[Lagonda]

People usually think about level and low bass when considering subs - my interest is mainly bass quality and improvements in airiness and definition. I have found that the most interesting aspect of subs in my room is changing the distribution of bass nodes, as the subs are 2m back from the main speakers.

Currently listening to ARC REF40 + Lamm M1.2's - always successful in the XLF's. SO much I got a second pair of M1.2's to try on the subs!

I always had best results with identical amps on main and subs. Hoping to
do the same in my own setup.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hello Francisco,

Have you had occasion to try the ported Watchdog subwoofers with sealed main speakers?

 

[infinitely baffled]

Surely, but who would care about time alignment at 40 Hz?

Any body listening to bass driven electronica like deep house or drum and bass.
To my ears the only set up that sounds coherent is stacking the subwoofers alongside the main speakers

 

[musicfirst1]

I've tried to achieve sub 20 Hz pressurization with the Rel Gibraltar G1 in a six pack configuration (L & R channels x 3 high stacks/channel). With felt furniture coasters and staggered stacks to adjust launch and phase, one can play to their heart's content.

My room is 13.5 wide by 35 feet long, the distance between the main speakers is about the same as the distance from the speaker plane to the listening chair.

While dialing them in, the stacks have traveled the world (well at least all four corners of my listening room and everywhere in between).
I even did the room node "crawl about", placing one stack at the listening position and marking nulls and nodes on the floor in the entire listening area to map potential locations. This was hugely instructive, and I HIGHLY recommend doing this, even though it seems like total lunacy to those outside this institution (and I suspect many inside as well ).

The stacks currently reside just to the inside (3"-6" between cabinets) and slightly forward of the main speakers so the centre sub is typically 1-3" in front the tweeter wave guide on the mains. On each of the stacks themselves, the top and bottom subs are staggered about 1" ahead of the centre sub.*

The bottom subs were high passed at 20hz, the middle at 23hz and the top at 25 with my Rockport Cygnus.

This setup was beautifully integrated and the subs do the bottom octave and subsonics well.

I've attached a photo of the setup just prior to final Dial in, with the subs final position being out approximately another six inches from here...

I would expect that my new speakers will require adjustments in the stack of a few inches in and out as well as left and right to achieve similar integration.

* Does Anal Retentive have a Hyphen?

Kerry