Your "World's Best Audio System" . . . 2012 Edition
- Thread starter Jeff Fritz
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WAVAC are also priced in a league of their own ... $350,000/pair ...It could be said to be really out there .. although it is TWBAS .. Are they really that special? Just asking...
This one seems to be in good company:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vopin&1245189567&read&keyw&zzwavac
On this one, though there are numbers for back up, I fall back on the "trust your ears" audiophile ethos: I believe in headroom. Lots of headroom. Enough to drive the load in question without even raising the amp's pulse rate. I know the effect it has had in my systems and it is, in my experience, much more audible and beneficial than almost everything else we obsess over in the hobby. If you're willing to pay enough of it to drive the best speakers with tubes, more power to you, but I'm not. Since I've discovered active systems, I won't even pay the price for enough pure unadulterated grunt to drive through the morass of resistance that is the passive crossover. YMMV. More important to this conversation, while I haven't heard everything, I remain unconvinced that the low power/high efficiency path can get you to SOTA, because of the nature of very high-efficiency speakers. My idea of a SOTA speaker has great control, low distortion, pretty linear response, and this is the important part...on and off axis.
There may be a horn that keeps up with more conventional, less efficient designs by that last measure, but I haven't heard it.
Tim
There may be a horn that keeps up with more conventional, less efficient designs by that last measure, but I haven't heard it.
Tim
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Can you expand on that? I'm moved more and more by high sensitivity speakers as I feel that power hungry speakers are likely to compress and distort at high SPL, though I don't know if that's necessarily true.
WAVAC are also priced in a league of their own ... $350,000/pair ...It could be said to be really out there .. although it is TWBAS .. Are they really that special? Just asking
I doubt it. i can't believe any set of amps costs more than a Porsche Turbo RS, but that's me
There are, no doubt, exceptions to the rule, but speakers likely to reach realistic levels when driven by low-power amps are likely to be horn-loaded, and they create a whole new set of problems.
That's not necessarily true. But if you're not willing to go active and/or pay the price for very high-powered amps, high efficiency speakers will probably give you better performance.
Tim
Hi Keith. The answer is: it depends. 25 watts SETS, even on efficient speakers, still will be insufficient depending upon certain factors, including, without limitation, how loud one wishes to listen to music and the crest factor(s). Tim has got it exactly right: headroom. Having stated that, there are plenty of tube amps that are high powered as well as less than mega buck SS amps, so what you presented is a false dichotomy between low powered SETs and mega buck SS. I have no opinion on the other dichotomy you presented; I have no data to support or refute your claim except that, if you are right, then you are reading a post from the 10th person
.If you saw my first post in this thread, three of the four suggestions I made were active designs. Active is interesting and sensible, though Dr. Geddes directly contradicted some of my preconceptions with regard to its benefits. Particularly that well designed and specified passive crossovers aren't much trouble when measured and inaudible when compared directly with active designs.
When it comes to amplifier output, I define 'very high' as 300-400 watts. That's more than enough for any small room (i.e. not a stadium), but 100 watts is plenty. I would prefer to cull any speakers less than 88dB sensitive from my shortlist - with exceptions. Horns aren't my cup of tea, mostly because I won't dedicate the space required for high performing horns, though Danley and JBL models are exceptions. So I'm biased towards highly directive designs featuring large, sensitive drivers with a relatively high frequency high pass. I am convinced that an independent subwoofer's placement options can increase fidelity over a full range speaker.
I doubt it. i can't believe any set of amps costs more than a Porsche Turbo RS, but that's me
Price click HERE
Measurements Here
Hi Keith. The answer is: it depends. 25 watts SETS, even on efficient speakers, still will be insufficient depending upon certain factors, including, without limitation, how loud one wishes to listen to music and the crest factor(s). Tim has got it exactly right: headroom. Having stated that, there are plenty of tube amps that are high powered as well as less than mega buck SS amps, so what you presented is a false dichotomy between low powered SETs and mega buck SS. I have no opinion on the other dichotomy you presented; I have no data to support or refute your claim except that, if you are right, then you are reading a post from the 10th person
Is there a consensus on high power tubes? Manley Neo-Classic and Audio Research 610T come to mind.
For high power tube amps my vote goes to the VAC 450 Statement and for low power, the Lamm ML3.
I don't agree with Dr. Geddes' on that point and I have a lot of company with much greater knowledge and experience than myself. There are, no doubt, some passive speakers that sound better than some active speakers. There may even be some designs in which passive and active cannot be differentiated, but I have serious doubts, particularly when active is done properly, with the amps purpose-designed or chosen for the individual drivers in the system. Simply taking the same amps and placing them after an active crossover will not optimize an active design.
My monitors have 75 watts for each tweeter, 250 watts for each woofer. I'll never get them anywhere near their maximum volume, but I don't consider that too much, I consider it my comfort zone and long for another several hundred watts of subwoofer
.Tim
Although this is outside the scope of this thread, what amplifier parameters should be tuned for a specific driver? Power?
I've never heard of Grellman amps Ron. Can't find anything on google either. The closest I got to Grellman + Amps was a story of Jacob's visit to Steve's, Mike G's and Wolf. Gotta link?
Hi Keith. The answer is: it depends. 25 watts SETS, even on efficient speakers, still will be insufficient depending upon certain factors, including, without limitation, how loud one wishes to listen to music and the crest factor(s). Tim has got it exactly right: headroom. Having stated that, there are plenty of tube amps that are high powered as well as less than mega buck SS amps, so what you presented is a false dichotomy between low powered SETs and mega buck SS. I have no opinion on the other dichotomy you presented; I have no data to support or refute your claim except that, if you are right, then you are reading a post from the 10th person
The problem with comparing low watt tube amps to high watt tube amps is the different topologies. By going high wattage, you lose the entire point of low watt, single ended designs. or even simple push-pull circuits. You can't compare the two as you describe. That's why I didn't try.
I have meters on my Mcintosh 601s that measure peak wattage---I use 6-10 watts at most on earbleeding levels with 101db speakers in a pretty sizable space. I would find it hard to believe that I have dynamic issues even with 25 watt SETs or FirstWatt type amps (why I own SS amps is an entirely different issue for now--and yes, I've tried 845 monoblocks and didn't necessarily hear dynamic restriction, just different bass).
The problem with audiophile doctrine is that higher power is always better--I find among my group of audiophile friends that folks are moving in opposite direction. Simpler speakers with simple crossovers (Tim, we agree on this!) and simple amplifiers. Dealers like In Living Stereo and Pitch Perfect Audio are thriving with this. John Devore is making the move with his Orangutan speaker line. Class A solid state amps that max out at 50 watts are coming back (Valvet, FirstWatt, etc.). Perhaps Dr. Williams can chime in here, but I bet he prefers his Lamms to his ARC gear of yesteryear for that reason. I noticed at the Newport Beach show that big speakers with big SS amps (500 watt plus) didn't have the dynamics and palpability that a Reference 3A Grand Veena system had with 100 watt SS monos (which cost 1/3 the price). They *should* if you read measurements---but just didn't by my ears. Who is right? Who knows. I just know SOTA for me isn't the lowest amount of distortion, flattest frequency curve, etc. There are other things that are important to me.
Anyways, I'm done chatting about this subject--Jeff, sorry for the interlude. I should have made this my own thread.
Cheers,
KeithR
Folks,
I just think there's several approaches that can produce amazing audio performance using whatever the technology is (tube, SS, Class A, Class D, high power, low power...)
A forum discussion will hardly convince people to change opinion on their favorite approach to "perfection", so my two cents are to go back to "play" with Jeff on its game. I guess that as Jeff will propose a short (or medium) list of candidates for a spot in heaven, we'll all have lots of fun.
I just think there's several approaches that can produce amazing audio performance using whatever the technology is (tube, SS, Class A, Class D, high power, low power...)
A forum discussion will hardly convince people to change opinion on their favorite approach to "perfection", so my two cents are to go back to "play" with Jeff on its game. I guess that as Jeff will propose a short (or medium
) list of candidates for a spot in heaven, we'll all have lots of fun.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
KeithR
What about a high power amp on high sensitivity speaker ? Such a comparison would be worthwhile .. To me the essence of what i am hearing with high sensitivity is not the low power of the amp ... rather it is the high sensitivity of the speaker ...
I am not sold on the low power approach. One listen to the Bryston 28B will tell you all you need to know about serious, high performance and in the context of High End Audio t $350,000 amplifers, modestly priced.
What about a high power amp on high sensitivity speaker ? Such a comparison would be worthwhile .. To me the essence of what i am hearing with high sensitivity is not the low power of the amp ... rather it is the high sensitivity of the speaker ...
I am not sold on the low power approach. One listen to the Bryston 28B will tell you all you need to know about serious, high performance and in the context of High End Audio t $350,000 amplifers, modestly priced.
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