Your "World's Best Audio System" . . . 2012 Edition

[Phelonious Ponk]

Most designers that I've spoken with tell me that active is ultimately the best configuration for a loudspeaker. I think there are inherent advantages there that are easy to understand.

However, the best speaker manufacturers in the home market seem to have gone farther in terms of driver development, cabinet resonance control, and perhaps other areas where the pro market seems to be lagging. Fot instance, I still see a fair number of poly drivers in pro speakers. Whereas the prevailing wisdom with the best drivers is that the primary break-up mode of a cone be two octaves outside of its passband. A poly driver won't do that. Laurence Dickie of Vivid made pro drivers when he left B&W, but has really optimized his designs in his current line of home speakers.

I'd have to attach a huge "it depends" on that one, Jeff. Similar claims can and have been made regarding the superior physical characteristics of metal tweeters. And they're true. The ultimate effect on sound? Properly executed, I'll still take a silk Scanspeak over any berillium dome I've heard to date. Woofers? I'm still very fond of what can be squeezed out of treated paper cones.

Tim

 

[ack]

I take the latter as evidence that the former is nonsense. Add to that my listening experience -- the cleanest, clearest, most resolving speaker systems I've heard were all active -- and I give this issue no more thought. YMMV.

Tim

The latter could also imply "I don't care"

 

[Jeff Fritz]

I'd have to attach a huge "it depends" on that one, Jeff. Similar claims can and have been made regarding the superior physical characteristics of metal tweeters. And they're true. The ultimate effect on sound? Properly executed, I'll still take a silk Scanspeak over any berillium dome I've heard to date. Woofers? I'm still very fond of what can be squeezed out of treated paper cones.

Tim

It is easily measureable, and very much audible in my experience (I've had the D30 here in multiple speakers, the Dynaudio Esotar, the new Scan-Speak Be dome, and two other Be domes as well). I love the Scan-Speak D30, but it simply won't do what the best Be domes will do. It is true that it has a more benign break-up mode than a metal tweeter, but the break-up is within the passband of the tweeter. The Be and diamond domes push it out way farther, and are higher fidelity because of it. Of course the implementation is still key, as you say.

As for paper woofers, yes they can sound quite good. But they are far from state of the art. This is what I mean by saying that some audiophile companies are pushing the envelope. Take Dickie -- he's been home and pro -- and his cantenary-shaped Al dome is good past 40kHz before it breaks up. There's a reason for that -- higher fidelity.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It is easily measureable, and very much audible in my experience (I've had the D30 here in multiple speakers, the Dynaudio Esotar, the new Scan-Speak Be dome, and two other Be domes as well). I love the Scan-Speak D30, but it simply won't do what the best Be domes will do. It is true that it has a more benign break-up mode than a metal tweeter, but the break-up is within the passband of the tweeter. The Be and diamond domes push it out way farther, and are higher fidelity because of it. Of course the implementation is still key, as you say.

As for paper woofers, yes they can sound quite good. But they are far from state of the art. This is what I mean by saying that some audiophile companies are pushing the envelope. Take Dickie -- he's been home and pro -- and his cantenary-shaped Al dome is good past 40kHz before it breaks up. There's a reason for that -- higher fidelity.

No argument, Jeff, just seeking balance. I can't hear past 15kHz. A break-up mode above 40kHz, while technically impressive, is a moot point. But this is a SOTA thread, so have at it. If you're looking for actives with cutting-edge drivers, they're out there. But this is an audiophile SOTA thread, so I doubt that's much of an issue.

Tim

 

[Jeff Fritz]

No argument, Jeff, just seeking balance. I can't hear past 15kHz. A break-up mode above 40kHz, while technically impressive, is a moot point. But this is a SOTA thread, so have at it. If you're looking for actives with cutting-edge drivers, they're out there. But this is an audiophile SOTA thread, so I doubt that's much of an issue.

Tim

Maybe the best driver data available today is from Klippel. This is a great primer on the subject of cone vibration:

http://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kli...ture/Papers/KLIPPEL_Cone_Vibration_Poster.pdf

I do know of some loudspeaker companies that use this system or custom solutions that are similar. One look at the FRs, and once you know some of the nonlinear distortions are driver-induced, you begin to see how important this is. Anyway, the Klippel poster is great reading if you're interested . . .

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Maybe the best driver data available today is from Klippel. This is a great primer on the subject of cone vibration:

http://www.klippel.de/fileadmin/kli...ture/Papers/KLIPPEL_Cone_Vibration_Poster.pdf

I do know of some loudspeaker companies that use this system or custom solutions that are similar. One look at the FRs, and once you know some of the nonlinear distortions are driver-induced, you begin to see how important this is. Anyway, the Klippel poster is great reading if you're interested . . .

Thanks. There's something about metal tweeters that typically puts me on edge, but it occurs to me that the overwhelming majority of my listening to metal tweeters has been limited to domestic hifi. Perhaps they are too faithfully reproducing the distortions of passive crossovers . *

There have been some exceptions, though. The berillium tweeters in the Event Opals don't bother me at all. Smooth as silk, pun intended.

Tim

* Or perhaps silk tweeters are my musical euphony!

 

[garylkoh]

Thanks. There's something about metal tweeters that typically puts me on edge, but it occurs to me that the overwhelming majority of my listening to metal tweeters has been limited to domestic hifi. Perhaps they are too faithfully reproducing the distortions of passive crossovers . *

There have been some exceptions, though. The berillium tweeters in the Event Opals don't bother me at all. Smooth as silk, pun intended.

Tim

* Or perhaps silk tweeters are my musical euphony!

Tim, look at the size of the metal tweeters you've listened to. Unless they are specially shaped, special material like beryllium (and there a lot of faux beryllium drivers), they will have a "oil can" resonance below 18kHz if they are 1", higher if 3/4". That's very broadly generalizing because I know that many designers damp the metal to control resonance.

The best metal tweeter I have is a 10mm aluminum but efficiency was too low. I kept it because may be one day I'll design a nice active 2-way. Silk tweeters will have a much flatter resonance response so the resonance is much more benign to your ears.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The latter could also imply "I don't care"

It could, ack, but it doesn't.

Tim, look at the size of the metal tweeters you've listened to. Unless they are specially shaped, special material like beryllium (and there a lot of faux beryllium drivers), they will have a "oil can" resonance below 18kHz if they are 1", higher if 3/4". That's very broadly generalizing because I know that many designers damp the metal to control resonance.

I've heard metal tweeters I liked, Gary. It's just that I've heard a lot of them I didn't like at all, and a good silk makes me happy. I don't hear distortion in silk tweeters in active systems from companies like Dynaudio and AVi. I do hear a slight roll-of when compared with ribbons, metals, etc. but that's a compromise I'm willing to accept.

The best metal tweeter I have is a 10mm aluminum but efficiency was too low. I kept it because may be one day I'll design a nice active 2-way.

Please do. And send me a pair for evaluation .

Silk tweeters will have a much flatter resonance response so the resonance is much more benign to your ears.

Perhaps that's what I'm hearing. Active designs can be very revealing. Maybe my ears are appreciating a bit of "euphony."

Tim

 

[JackD201]

My first reaction upon seeing a metal tweeter is an involuntary cringe. Years of Pavlovian like exposure have created ....gulp.... an expectation bias.

While I ultimately prefer ribbons first, soft fabric second, there are many systems using dome metal tweeters I've thought were more than just very, very good. Implementation should replace abracadabra as a magic word.

 

[garylkoh]

My first reaction upon seeing a metal tweeter is an involuntary cringe. Years of Pavlovian like exposure have created ....gulp.... an expectation bias.

While I ultimately prefer ribbons first, soft fabric second, there are many systems using dome metal tweeters I've thought were more than just very, very good. Implementation should replace abracadabra as a magic word.

Same thing with me- most metal tweeters make me cringe. The last speaker with a metal tweeter I owned was the Mordant Short MS100. It had a 1/4" metal tweeter, but so inefficient that you need a huge amplifier to drive it.

Nevertheless, there have been many, many good speakers with metal tweeters in the past 30 years since I owned those MS100's. I still regret selling them, but a pair of Accustats was too tempting to resist.

Sorry for the OT thread drift..... now back to world's best....

Jeff, you can't consider the world's best if you have not considered FM Acoustics. The FM223 phono stage, FM268 preamp and FM1811 power amp are IMHO the world's best SS electronics. I've not heard the latest, but I've had/have the FM122, FM266, FM255 and FM 811.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Implementation should replace abracadabra as a magic word.

A very enthusiastic +1.

While I ultimately prefer ribbons first, soft fabric second, there are many systems using dome metal tweeters I've thought were more than just very, very good.

Yep, with the slight alteration that I might reverse the order of the ribbons and domes. Of course that depends on implementation .

Tim

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff, you can't consider the world's best if you have not considered FM Acoustics. The FM223 phono stage, FM268 preamp and FM1811 power amp are IMHO the world's best SS electronics. I've not heard the latest, but I've had/have the FM122, FM266, FM255 and FM 811.

Gary, are you close with the company? Other than one interview, in which they mailed me the answers(!), I can't get much response from them. Do they send out review samples?

 

[Bruce B]

We have the Focal Twin6/Solo6/Sub6 in a 5.1 config. I love the Be tweeters.

 

[garylkoh]

Gary, are you close with the company? Other than one interview, in which they mailed me the answers(!), I can't get much response from them. Do they send out review samples?

You'll have to holiday in Phuket and try to meet Manuel to get an interview He spends his Winters there. They do not send out review samples, and typically do not even respond to emails. Wasn't it Bert Whyte who did the last review?

 

[Jeff Fritz]

You'll have to holiday in Phuket and try to meet Manuel to get an interview He spends his Winters there. They do not send out review samples, and typically do not even respond to emails. Wasn't it Bert Whyte who did the last review?

Then I would say there is little practical chance I could include them.

On another note, has anyone heard the Goldmund speakers recently?

 

[JasonI]

Jeff, are you getting a shortlist together yet?

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff, are you getting a shortlist together yet?

At this point, no. Maybe I started the thread a bit early, but I think it is prudent to wait to see what is coming out toward the end of the year. No doubt at RMAF there will be some new things, and I'm hoping to get some advanced word (which threads like this help with) on what will be new at CES. The system will be announced at CES, but, for instance, if I chose a Spectral 360 II now, then found out in November that a 360 III would be at CES . . .

There have been some really good suggestions, and I have some favorites as well. But as of right now, no slam-dunk has-to-be-that components. Maybe it's coming though . . . so I'll just keep all options open for now.

 

[mullard88]

Hi Jeff Fritz,

One possible way for you to hear FM Acoustic products is to visit The Sound Chamber in Hong Kong where one of the rooms is dedicated to FM Acoustic products. The three pieces that Gary mentioned, the 268, 223, and 1811 are all dream components for me. I think these are the three best products of FM Acoustic.

 

[ack]

Audio Limits in Denver is the distributor and sole dealer in the US, if Jeff cares to pay a visit. I think someone from the audio-review industry owes coverage of this line.

 

[Nevillekapadia]

Surely there are more European products that don't make it due to lack of dealerships that could qualify. See this coverage of the Munich show by a french journalist.

http://translate.googleusercontent....tart=0&usg=ALkJrhifba8Cxgelv6JKyTEYhxxhefua9Q