Your "World's Best Audio System" . . . 2012 Edition

[docvale]

Well the reality is that if the chosen speakers have high efficiency many tube amps perform just fine. ....

I agree.
As every system is usually built starting from the choice of the speakers, I guess that if Jeff will consider some speaker possibilities, he will have the liberty to pick an amplification independently on its technology

As I reported in the Axpona NYC thread, I had nice listening sessions, specially with some gear that I had never listened to before
From the technological point of view, I've been impressed by the fact that combining the latest version of Pure Music with a Playback Systems source allows to stream basically every kind of musical file. I could be wrong, but, up to my knowledge, this is the only combination that allows this opportunity: as many audiophiles love SACD and it seems that there's the possibility to rip them now (in addition to the purchase of native DSD master files from 2L...), this is a great point for the one that would be my choice among the sources

At this point, I'll throw my stone:
If there will be a double source available (digital and vinyl), why not play a little bit? I'd be tremendously curious to compare a traditional vinyl setup (from cartridge to phono to line stage) with a combination that would disgust the most conservative analogist: cartridge -> Channel D Seta L (or any device that outputs analogue signal before RIAA equalization)-> a SOTA A/D converter (Prism Sound? Apogee?) -> Mac computer with Pure Vinyl (and digital RIAA)-> DRC -> a SOTA D/A converter and then so on.

 

[microstrip]

Back to SOTA products - did any one listen to the TAD D600 digital player? An unhappy close acquaintance that was listening to it last weekend whispered me today that he found it better than his previous reference - the Playback. BTW, the unhappy epithet is due to the price, nothing else ...

 

[docvale]

did any one listen to the TAD D600 digital player? ...

Haven't listened to it, but I've listened to the C-2000 DAC/Pre. Matched with a M-2500 power amp and the "small" CR-1 speakers, it created a really good sounding system

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Well the reality is that if the chosen speakers have high efficiency many tube amps perform just fine. My amp also uses the GM-70 as a DHT SET.

I just feel strongly that the time is ripe to consider such efficient speakers with the use of a properly matched tube amp and tube preamp. There has been strong enough sentiment here to warrant such. Otherwise the thread is nothing more than a laundry list

OK, I'll play. Can you give us three high-sensitivity speakers that have SOTA drivers, are extremely linear and low distortion, wide dispersion, full range, etc., that would qualify in your mind?

I don't think anyone here would advocate compromising on the fidelity of the speakers to suit a certain amp.

 

[Steve williams]

Jeff

I just expressed my opinion. The long and the short of it is that this is your gig so why don't "you" play and give us three examples.

The long and the short of this exercise is that you are going to use whatever you see fit and which manufacturers will play ball with you and quite honestly there seems to be an out cry from the members here regarding tubes and analog something which the Soundstage Network hasn't done since Marc was reviewing there

 

[KeithR]

OK, I'll play. Can you give us three high-sensitivity speakers that have SOTA drivers, are extremely linear and low distortion, wide dispersion, full range, etc., that would qualify in your mind?

I don't think anyone here would advocate compromising on the fidelity of the speakers to suit a certain amp.

Sure, here are a few:

Classic Audio Reproductions T1.1 with field coil drivers
Wilson Alexandria (though I don't think they have SOTA drivers you are asking for)
Shindo Latours
Zu Dominance (same thing on non-SOTA drivers---nanoteched FRDs with a super high end supertweeter)

Focal used to be pretty tube friendly, but as I recall lately that has ended.

I believe the biggest trend in audio is higher efficiency speakers---even Magico recognized with with the Q3 (which i want to see measurements to believe).

 

[Ron Party]

Although the math is indisputable, the physics is not

Most of the time the only data we have about speaker efficiency is the averaged anechoic data measured at 1m with pink noise, that is far from what we get in real rooms. Calculus made with this data are sometimes a very poor approximation and can explain some surprises.

This is just denying science. Please don't strawman me with specs that aren't in the room. Of course we go by what is happening in the room. And the fact of the matter is just as I stated.

A watt is a watt and it is the first watt which is most important. I have yet to hear my ML3's clip at near ear bleeding SPL.

Steve, the first watt may be what is most important to some, but definitely is not what is most important to all. What I stated is unequivocally correct and remains so even though your ears bleed earlier than mine.

On 2 watt 45-based amps, Ron is correct.

The math does not change due to the wattage of the amp. What I stated is universally correct.

My take is that high sensitivity is valuable, but not at the expense of other criteria such as linearity. I would not sacrifice low coloration for high sensitivity. But I would like to have it all.

Exactly. And to be SOTA, IMO, it necessarily has it all.

Also, it should be noted that specs are one thing, reality another. The classic case is the Coincident speaker that we reviewed a number of years back. The claim was 94dB. The reality was 86dB when we measured it.

Exactly my point earlier in response to microstrip. When looking at reality, and not denying science, the fact of the matter is if one wants to make a claim that these Coincident speakers are SOTA, then one necessarily must have high powered amps which, of course, means that the claim is easily debunked.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

OK, I'll play. Can you give us three high-sensitivity speakers that have SOTA drivers, are extremely linear and low distortion, wide dispersion, full range, etc., that would qualify in your mind?

I don't think anyone here would advocate compromising on the fidelity of the speakers to suit a certain amp.

ok, i'll throw out the Evolution Acoustics MM3's; which were the speakers used with the 45 tube monoblocks i wrote about that got us on this low-powered tangent.

they are active in the bass; so the low powered amp only needs to power the pair of ceramic mid-ranges and the ribbon tweeter. and that low powered amp only sees a 93db, 6 ohm load. you might think, can this approach be coherent? is it linear top to bottom? yes and yes.

and the MM3's decend into the depths without any strain on the low powered amp. and you have -4- 15 inch subwoofers so you can pressurize pretty much any room easily. the active bass has multiple adjustments for in-room optimization and the tweeter also has a gain adjustment.

the MM3's are happy with almost any kind and any level of amplifier. i have used the 100 watt solid state darTZeel Stereo amp, i've had the big darTZeel monoblocks, i had the DeHaviland 40 watt monoblocks, the 1 watt 45 tubed amps, a pair of Lamm ML2.1's.....and they all worked. the bass integrated with each amp and sounded coherent.

the 1 watt SET had limitations, but none of the others even broke a sweat.

just because the MM3's list price is under $50k don't sell them short....which i know, is tempting to do.

 

[microstrip]

This is just denying science. Please don't strawman me with specs that aren't in the room. Of course we go by what is happening in the room. And the fact of the matter is just as I stated.

Ron,
Science will tell you that exact maximum sound pressure at the listening position can not be calculated just taking the speaker anechoic sensitivity and adding the corresponding parcel of amplifier in dBW power.
There are many other factors. This was my only point.

BTW, what color do you want me to post when I post an humorous remark?

 

[microstrip]

OK, I'll play. Can you give us three high-sensitivity speakers that have SOTA drivers, are extremely linear and low distortion, wide dispersion, full range, etc., that would qualify in your mind?

I don't think anyone here would advocate compromising on the fidelity of the speakers to suit a certain amp.

Jeff,

Would you consider the latest version of the Avantgarde Trio with basshorns? I have no experience with the Trio, but heard excellent sound from the smaller models.
I am sure some people would also pick the Living Voice Vox Olympian.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff

I just expressed my opinion. The long and the short of it is that this is your gig so why don't "you" play and give us three examples.

The long and the short of this exercise is that you are going to use whatever you see fit and which manufacturers will play ball with you and quite honestly there seems to be an out cry from the members here regarding tubes and analog something which the Soundstage Network hasn't done since Marc was reviewing there

Well, because you are the person that keeps making the suggestion, so I thought you had something in mind?

Steve, the primary "outcry" seems to be from you. I don't see much of an outcry otherwise, just a discussion about lots of cool products. Is that not OK with you? You've asked what's the point of the thread already.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Jeff,

Would you consider the latest version of the Avantgarde Trio with basshorns? I have no experience with the Trio, but heard excellent sound from the smaller models.
I am sure some people would also pick the Living Voice Vox Olympian.

Yes, though I don't know that I could get he Basshorns in my room.

BTW, did you see the electronics they introduced in Munich? They look very nice.

 

[Jeff Fritz]

Sure, here are a few:

Classic Audio Reproductions T1.1 with field coil drivers

This is a speaker that has always intrigued me. I hope to get a good listen at RMAF. Don't they use TADs as well?

 

[naturephoto1]

My OMA New Yorker Horn Prototype speakers may be considered SOTA because they would not have been possible without the new drivers. The new production name which are still to be released is the Monarch. The Monarchs are the 2nd smallest of the 5 speakers made by OMA. They have an efficiency of 105 dB/1w/1m. You can see a teaser photo of the Monarch:

My New Yorker Prototype speakers look like this:

I anticipate that Jonathan Weiss should have the Monarchs at the 2011 RMAF.

Rich

 

[microstrip]

Yes, though I don't know that I could get he Basshorns in my room.

BTW, did you see the electronics they introduced in Munich? They look very nice.

No. But I have just looked and they really look gorgeous. I did not care for the sound of Avantgarde for a long time, until I heard them with their own Avantgarde Model 3 amplifier, the small slim one. It was the first time I heard a horn that did not sound like a "terrible horn". It was really terribly good!

 

[Jeff Fritz]

My OMA New Yorker Horn Prototype speakers may be considered SOTA because they would not have been possible without the new drivers. The new production name which are still to be released is the Monarch. The Monarchs are the 2nd smallest of the 5 speakers made by OMA. They have an efficiency of 105 dB/1w/1m. You can see a teaser photo of the Monarch:

My New Yorker Prototype speakers look like this:

I anticipate that Jonathan Weiss should have the Monarchs at the 2011 RMAF.

Rich

Wow, that's quite something! I look forward to hearing them.

 

[Orb]

Well the reality is that if the chosen speakers have high efficiency many tube amps perform just fine. My amp also uses the GM-70 as a DHT SET.

I just feel strongly that the time is ripe to consider such efficient speakers with the use of a properly matched tube amp and tube preamp. There has been strong enough sentiment here to warrant such. Otherwise the thread is nothing more than a laundry list

I have to say that I only partially agree Steve.
Yes there should be a tube system alternative to the solid state for the new project by Jeff as this covers a different preference and is not seen as being a group test comparison test (which doing sources would had).
Furthermore it evolves the project's process by including and then providing a narrative that it is possible for two different SOTA to coexist even if they sound subtly different, the limitation as discussed is that it is focused specifically on the preamp-amp as other changes start to become too much for such a project.

Where I disagree is that the tube products selected being SOTA must be able to play on the majority of SOTA speakers, and all those selected for the short list.
Surely a part of SOTA is the product being more universal in that it does not restrict a listener to specific set of hardware (such as horns-very sensitive speakers-etc), the leeway though should be to ignore very poor sensitivity speakers.

Now this may be a challenge for sets (definitely for most) but there may be some that are still acceptable such as your Lamms, while other tubes will comfortably fit such as my suggestion of the 60th anniversary McIntosh that has good amount of watts, very low distortion and frequency response variations across whole frequency and various impedance, and output impedance matching very good SS amps.
Bearing in mind that this is a project that is as much an adventure of experience including setup and listening (and for me this is what makes it superb) as it is about the final setup chosen, then we have to accept the possibility that out of this may come an acknowledgement that there is not enough watts for final critical listening - or possibly that a product like Steve's Lamms do have enough.
It is not possible to state until the time they are part of the process, which I guess means that the project may need to define an earlier pre listening test to have an indication of such performance for the tube amp.
The alternative is to have a short list of several amps including those with experience have shown can work with average sensitivity speakers such as the Lamm while also having more powerful tube amps and then take off the list if they fail at time of choosing the specific whats best setup in the room.
Anyway to me this is not a problem, just part of the experience and enjoyment of this project.

Just to add about SOTA and the product being universal, this also works the other way with horn speakers (if considered) in that they should sound excellent with the SOTA SS pre-power amps on the short list, and not restricted to tube products even if it means part of the sensitivity becomes meaningless with some of the more powerful SS amps in the list.
Thanks
Orb

 

[KeithR]

Orb- i think this is why MBL isn't doing so well in the USA now. super low efficiency with mega solid state requirements just doesn't sell well.

 

[KeithR]

This is just denying science. Please don't strawman me with specs that aren't in the room. Of course we go by what is happening in the room. And the fact of the matter is just as I stated.


Steve, the first watt may be what is most important to some, but definitely is not what is most important to all. What I stated is unequivocally correct and remains so even though your ears bleed earlier than mine.


The math does not change due to the wattage of the amp. What I stated is universally correct.


Exactly. And to be SOTA, IMO, it necessarily has it all.


Exactly my point earlier in response to microstrip. When looking at reality, and not denying science, the fact of the matter is if one wants to make a claim that these Coincident speakers are SOTA, then one necessarily must have high powered amps which, of course, means that the claim is easily debunked.

Ron- 25 watt SETs on the right speaker should not have dynamic restrictions---care to say why i'm incorrect? and therefore in your opinion the only SOTA amps are mega buck solid state? we can agree to disagree if that's the case. 9 out of 10 people will take Steve's Lamm setup over a Spectral setup would be my guess.

WAVAC even makes 100 watt SETs.

 

[JackD201]

Ron- 25 watt SETs on the right speaker have no dynamic restrictions---you are incorrect.

WAVAC even makes 100 watt SETs.

150 watt SETs.