I really like the idea of comparing different sources on the same system. Ideally comparing the same recording.
The logistics of setting up two systems with the requisite two sets of manufacturers . . . not sure about that. We could have a fight!
Your "World's Best Audio System" . . . 2012 Edition
- Thread starter Jeff Fritz
- Start date
I really like the idea of comparing different sources on the same system. Ideally comparing the same recording.
The logistics of setting up two systems with the requisite two sets of manufacturers . . . not sure about that. We could have a fight!
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Jeff
Not so difficult at all. You can have the 2nd system set up at another of your reviewers rooms, ideally at the one closest to you. I agree with Mike re getting the best out of every source however Val makes a strong point IMHO re having amp and preamp by the same mfr
Not so difficult at all. You can have the 2nd system set up at another of your reviewers rooms, ideally at the one closest to you. I agree with Mike re getting the best out of every source however Val makes a strong point IMHO re having amp and preamp by the same mfr
No offense Steve, but it would double the trouble for sure (I'd have to get on a plane to hear both! -- and this is to be done in one weekend). And to what end? The systems would be in two different acoustic environments, precluding any sort of valid comparison between the two.
And I know there will be those that disagree, but it would also water it down. After all, it's not called TWBASs. I think multiple SOTA sources compared over the same system is a wonderful idea.
I agree with Mike's suggestion to use a speaker system with high enough sensitivity to work with a wide range of tube or SS amps.
Keep the source(s) the same and listen with two or more different preamp/amp combos.
If a DAC is selected that has an output stage that can drive amps direct, that should also be tried.
Keep the source(s) the same and listen with two or more different preamp/amp combos.
If a DAC is selected that has an output stage that can drive amps direct, that should also be tried.
I think another interesting comparison would be different DACs: perhaps one with a tube output stage, one nonoversampling with no digital filtering, and one with the very latest technology with a solid-state output stage.
I wouldn't personally want my SOTA speaker choices hobbled by the limitations of low-powered tube amps, but YMMV.
Tim
Tim
Hi Tim,
Though no one has suggested it to this point, but there are some very expensive, HiEnd, SOTA horn speakers that would fit the bill. So doing and in most cases these speakers would have very low power requirements.
Rich
I don't doubt that a bit, Rich. But speakers are arguably the component in a system which has the greatest impact on sound. Setting up the criteria so a specific type of speaker is required is far too limiting. Besides, I think Jeff was looking for suggestions, not rules.
Tim
i might have agreed with your statement prior to hearing how magical my friend's 45 tube based, mercury vapor rectified 1 watt SET's on my Evolution MM3's. no question there were considerable limitations to the type of music that worked and there were performance envelope limitations, but it did work. and what i heard was breathtaking. the MM3's don't stress low powered amps since the amp only needs to power the tweeter and mid-range drivers and the amp sees a 93db, 6ohm load, and the bass was still seamless and articulate. after experiencing that kind of see thru transparency, speed inside the notes, and astonishing delicacy......i'm going to try and capture that magic with a little more powerful version of that amp my friend is building for me.
once bitten with the vision of that view on the music, i want to have that gear to shift to. and any system aspiring to 'do it all'.......needs to do a version of that or it's not the whole enchilada.
and......if a system can do 'full tilt boggie' at the highest level, and then shift gears to the most sublime delicacy imaginable......that is worth doing for sure. yes; the darTZeel is very very good at that end of the musical catalog too.....and is my choice for a one amp system.
Would you consider listener location(s)?
I have discovered liberation from "the/a sweetspot" of great moment. Indeed, it is a prerequisite in our listening schema that a system/loudspeaker effectively convey the recording when the listener(s) depart(s) from the conventional x,y,z coordinates
When my spouse and I evaluate systems, she often and deliberately positions herself off-axis, at least initially, while I assume the orthodox focus. We compare observations that, invariably, underscore the emancipation resulting from not being circumscribed by "the/a sweetspot".
I have discovered liberation from "the/a sweetspot" of great moment. Indeed, it is a prerequisite in our listening schema that a system/loudspeaker effectively convey the recording when the listener(s) depart(s) from the conventional x,y,z coordinates
When my spouse and I evaluate systems, she often and deliberately positions herself off-axis, at least initially, while I assume the orthodox focus. We compare observations that, invariably, underscore the emancipation resulting from not being circumscribed by "the/a sweetspot".
I feel the challenge here though is the implementation and interpretation on the use of filters/noise shaping, and this compounds potential differences if these are not the same and also other circuitry is different between the two compared products.
I appreciate for the project you may not be delving this deep, but it could be an issue if say trying to define whats best from a technological/design context.
As an example is the difference between Meridian and dCS for both DAC and filter-noise shaping implementation, or those products with multiple bespoke filter selections.
Also the NOS from what I understand suffer with poorer measurements, which may fall foul of the idea of meeting a certain measured criteria.
TBH I feel comparing two SOTA whats best amps and preamps for a SS and tube would provide a simpler narrative for publication when also considering the technology and design, along with general public preferences that are easier to correlate with these product types rather than digital sources.
The challenge though is deciding whether the tube and solid amps must work brilliantly with the same speaker that its selection is not compromised by the amps, or we end up with speakers perfectly matching both amp types.
There is a case for both, however as these are SOTA all the products should be more universal in terms of what they can connect to from a performance perspective, or should be IMO.
Cheers
Orb
I'm not saying they don't have their charms, Mike. But for my part, they are at least matched by their limitations.
Tim
Jeff,
I think once you start comparing the fun will disappear.
. I enjoyed a lot the previous TWBAS reports, and understood that you had the freedom to gather a system and the people behind the equipment in a memorable session. You did some excellent work and we all get a lot of enjoyment from it. The provocative tittle was part of it.
But, IMHO, these preliminary discussions are showing a new TWBAS. You seem to be rationalizing it too much, establishing rules and transforming it in a competition. Surely it is your TWBAS, and you are free to give it any orientation, but please keep the fun!
Jeff,
I think once you start comparing the fun will disappear.
I enjoyed a lot the previous TWBAS reports, and understood that you had the freedom to gather a system and the people behind the equipment in a memorable session. You did some excellent work and we all get a lot of enjoyment from it. The provocative tittle was part of it.
But, IMHO, these preliminary discussions are showing a new TWBAS. You seem to be rationalizing it too much, establishing rules and transforming it in a competition. Surely it is your TWBAS, and you are free to give it any orientation, but please keep the fun!
A very rational post. Ultimately it is about setting up the best system I possibly can, describing the whys and hows, and having fun with the whole project. And sharing it with all of you and the SoundStage! Network readership. I won't please everyone -- maybe not even most -- but I like this thread because at the very least I can see what other people think about SOTA systems and components. And you guys are like me: crazy about this hobby and the enjoyment we get out of the music it brings to our homes.
Thanks for bringing sanity back to my brain this morning!
I'm with microstrip on this one, Jeff. No need to turn this into a competition, or an exercise in consensus-building. Put together your idea of the world's best audio system, thoroughly enjoy yourself in the process, describe the journey and the results with articulate passion...that will make for a great read.
Tim
Tim
Hi
I can understand the feeling but let me recount a recent experience with a Quad ESl57. I always loved the mid-range from that speaker. it remains very good. While being removed from it for a long while, I have mostly listened to modern speakers. My conclusion, the midrange from the Quad remains good, almost spooky, yet the best modern day speakers better it in the midrange. Speakers like the Rockport Anquila, the EVO MM Micro , the VSA VR 5 anniversary, the Wilson Alexandra X-2 and too many others to list have all the mid-range magic one can dream of and then more.. more dynamics in this midrange, more extension everywhere else, more everything ...
These components highlight in a particular fashion an area where they are extraordinarily competent, grabbing the attention while the important rest fo the music almost falls by the way side, I rmemer back in the 70's how young kids would highlight their treble with the i (in)famous Motorola Piezo tweeter , a gross exageration .. yet we audiophiles from time to time gravitates toward something similar, seduced by a particular area of superiority (not that he motoroal was superior to anything really in the treble, although it was well used in some high-end speakers of the time the Dahlquist DQ-10 IIRC). When one compares the ESL 57 (not its true name BTW) to modern-day speakers, trying to remain objective in the subjective realm of evaluating how they sound (I know, I know it is a contradiction in essence but I strongly believe that trained listeners can reliably discern differences between components) their mid-range although good is no longer superlative. It stands out because that is all they could really do .... I have the same feeling about most low-power amps I have heard .. on some music genres they are almost magical but when compared to higher power amplifiers I have fond them lacking, even in the reduced set of music genres on which they seem to shine so brightly ...
Not saying that was your experience.
In this regard I would not introduced a low power amp in a SOTA system. They have not shown to me to be superior overall to the SOTA amps I have heard..Good in their particular area or even exceptional they may be .. SOTA they are not.
=====
Jeff
another speaker I would like you to include in this search. Von Schweikert VR11..Nor much has been written or said about it but if one hears the VR5 anniversary .. it can tell you how a serious contender to the SOTA a VR11 is.
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Isn't the VR11 and the MM7 "relatively" the same speaker? Same designer?
Edit: Just went to the website and think the VR-11 is more a'kin to the MM3
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