Zero Distortion: More on restored Thorens 124

[morricab]

When I get the schopper, and ship over to Bill, I will tell you how it compares to SME 30/2.

Afaik, TW, SME 30/2, brinkmann Lagrange, micro Seiki 5000 and Shindo Garrard got replaced by it.

So far belts other than techdas or maybe kronos are not my thing. I would love to put this next to a well restored technics or a kodo. Or a goldmund studio

When you get it, feel free to bring it over compared to my big Yamaha GT-2000...or take it to Christoph against the Kenwood KP-8030...you might wonder why you spent so much...

 

[microstrip]

(...) The thing with data points is that it’s easy to accumulate ones that continue to double down on that bias, simply because it’s more likely for us to seek out experiences that reinforce already existing biases, rather than challenge them. (...)

I also referred to it several times, you summarized it and give an easy to understand example. But is will be forgotten very fast, wise words are not popular in forums! And we love to read the data points ...

 

[bonzo75]

When you get it, feel free to bring it over compared to my big Yamaha GT-2000...or take it to Christoph against the Kenwood KP-8030...you might wonder why you spent so much...

It won't be so much. And yes I like DD

 

[bonzo75]

We have done direct comparisons to a fully restored Lenco L75, a mint condition Luxman PD444 DD and a big three motor, magentically decoupled Transrotor (exact model I cannot remember). The Lenco was raucous and fun but lacks most of the subtlety of the other two. The Luxman, surprisingly for a DD, has not that great drive compared to the other two and the big Transrotor was overall the best of the three. The Luxman, I think, would not fare that well against my Yamaha GT-2000 but we have not done the direct compare.

I have heard a TD-124 in good condition that to my ears sounded noisy and somewhat "dirty". I had a similar issue with my three motor Voyd but it was less of both noise and dirt. The Transrotor is good in that the three motors are completely decoupled from the platter and bearing and only through magnetic coupling drive the platter.

I agree about lenco. A TD 124 is different from a schopper swissonor 124

 

[bonzo75]

I also referred to it several times, you summarized it and give an easy to understand example. But is will be forgotten very fast, wise words are not popular in forums! And we love to read the data points ...

Generalizations are good when you look at a data point of someone who said what you agreed with

 

[microstrip]

I have heard a 301 and a 401 next to one now. In both cases I (and one owner of both 301 and the schopper) preferred the 124, though I preferred the 401 to another 124.

I think plinths do change a lot. The Garrard is good on flow but much lower on resolution, slam, and drive.

The 124 can be put in many plinths but they all agree that the simple, open from bottom plinth is the best.

Considering the physics of an idler drive, IMHO the plinth is the key to their sound. IMHO you risk you are listening to the plinths, not to the differences introduced by parts coming from the different suppliers.

 

[ddk]

I have heard a 301 and a 401 next to one now. In both cases I (and one owner of both 301 and the schopper) preferred the 124, though I preferred the 401 to another 124.

I think plinths do change a lot. The Garrard is good on flow but much lower on resolution, slam, and drive.

The 124 can be put in many plinths but they all agree that the simple, open from bottom plinth is the best.

I used to both manufacture and distribute various plinths for all three tables and yes the quality of the base is critical but so is the refurbishing. We supplied about 2-3 dozen of these tables to customers some were even NOS but the refurbished ones started in already great condition and aside from the idler wheel we kept them completely original. What we observed was that 124 had a lush sound great for Jazz and fun with rock if we let it run a touch fast but not enough resolution for classical music. The 301 easily beat it with a gigantic soundstage and killer bass but IMO still lacked the tonal resolution you necessary for classical music but the 401 was a little softer than the 301 but had it all and was great on all kinds of music. Many of these tweaks were already available in Japan decades ago I shied away because they always messed the overall balance of the sound. It's relatively easy to improve one aspect of the sound but it often comes at the expense of something else and the decks you heard seem to have been modified in different ways I can't see how you make clear judgements. In this case I suggest you forget about the model to model comparisons and just buy the table that sounds good to you on the spot because the next one can/will sound different.

david

 

[bonzo75]

Actually quite the opposite in both my schopper/swissonor demos. It's more neutral, much higher resolution than Garrard, loads more slam and bass, and bigger stage. Lenco has even bigger stage but lacks the details. Garrard has a bit more flow.

I agree about the table that sounds good there is the one to go for and there will be model to model differences. Same with apogees. And custom horns

 

[bonzo75]

853: My favorite holiday was San Sebastien, which apart from having the highest number of Michelin 3 stars per capita after Kyoto, is known for its Pintxo tours. You also have guided Pintxo tours. You essentially do a bar crawl, all bars close together, and pick up pintxos (small bites) for 3 - 5 Euros. Look up La Vina Cheesecake, for example. Its the most famous cheesecake. You can do many of these pintxo tours. It's a foodie paradise. When you land at Bilbao you have posters of Chefs greeting you.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hey Ked, even on pubs the differences between us all are apparent. You’ll love to go from one to the next gaining data points.
We’ve found the ones we love locally, that do great variety of beer, and spectacular food, and don’t feel the need to try everywhere.
While you’re searching endlessly filling in your notepad furiously, we’re getting nicely pissed, and full up w great food.
We don’t feel the need to try the other 97 pubs out there, just in case we’re missing out.
Each to their own.

 

[awsmone]

I used to both manufacture and distribute various plinths for all three tables and yes the quality of the base is critical but so is the refurbishing. We supplied about 2-3 dozen of these tables to customers some were even NOS but the refurbished ones started in already great condition and aside from the idler wheel we kept them completely original. What we observed was that 124 had a lush sound great for Jazz and fun with rock if we let it run a touch fast but not enough resolution for classical music. The 301 easily beat it with a gigantic soundstage and killer bass but IMO still lacked the tonal resolution you necessary for classical music but the 401 was a little softer than the 301 but had it all and was great on all kinds of music. Many of these tweaks were already available in Japan decades ago I shied away because they always messed the overall balance of the sound. It's relatively easy to improve one aspect of the sound but it often comes at the expense of something else and the decks you heard seem to have been modified in different ways I can't see how you make clear judgements. In this case I suggest you forget about the model to model comparisons and just buy the table that sounds good to you on the spot because the next one can/will sound different.

david

Very interesting comments David
I found exactly this with 124; as you changed things it changed but some good and bad, I listen to classical mainly,

It’s quite clear from the posts we all have preferences or biases

Ked I think it’s true if you hear one you like just buy it
Since 124 are popular you can always trade up
Doesn’t stop you listening to others

Remember when you comparing your listening to a whole system of preferences and even if everything else is the same and only tt are compared, the system will still highlight different things from the tt, or cover up some aspects of performance ....it’s a crazy game we all play

PS it’s off between you and Christoph.?...I didn’t read about that in the Daily mirror

 

[spiritofmusic]

Audiophiles breaking up? Can’t be worse than when they break up with their favourite gear.
Awsmone, I agree, we all hear things we like in gear.
Sometimes a change in emphasis really feels like a sweeping away of veils.
When I had my conversion moment from belt drive to direct rim drive, it was the gestalt of the music that seemed to finally be highlighted, not the usual audiophile checklist I heard on belt drives at the time.
5 years on, and knowing my direct rim drive inside out, I also know it’s shortcomings, which I know top belt drives aren’t victim too.
The q remains, am I ready to ditch what I love about my move from belt drive, or can I find a belt drive that does gestalt as well as inner beauty, the latter always superior on belt drive.

 

[bonzo75]

Audiophiles breaking up? Can’t be worse than when they break up with their favourite gear.
Awsmone, I agree, we all hear things we like in gear.
Sometimes a change in emphasis really feels like a sweeping away of veils.
When I had my conversion moment from belt drive to direct rim drive, it was the gestalt of the music that seemed to finally be highlighted, not the usual audiophile checklist I heard on belt drives at the time.
5 years on, and knowing my direct rim drive inside out, I also know it’s shortcomings, which I know top belt drives aren’t victim too.
The q remains, am I ready to ditch what I love about my move from belt drive, or can I find a belt drive that does gestalt as well as inner beauty, the latter always superior on belt drive.

Have both. This thing for trying to find one ideal one is silly. By nature we are polygamous

 

[spiritofmusic]

And one could say looking for an ideal one is silly too.
Of course if you’re looking for an ideal one, you’ll keep looking.

 

[bonzo75]

And one could say looking for an ideal one is silly too.
Of course if you’re looking for an ideal one, you’ll keep looking.

No I am not. I am getting as much swapping as possible out of my system now, so only the final shortlist remains, and I don't need to buy something just because I read about it. There is no ideal in analog. I know that for sure

 

[gian60]

The situation of this old TT is very strange and funny,everyone has different experience.

I had,for some change,401 Loricraft with sme 312,but i sold immediately because i didn't like,while i was very surprised of Swissonor td 124 and i bought.

My friend has TW Acustic Raven Black night and 301 restored in England and SP 10 mk II and he prefers much more this 2 than TW Acustic
He loves a lot also Technics sp 10 and he bought also MK III and will buy the new,While i listen 2 times SP 10 from other 2 friends and i didn't liked
My friend Pietro had SP 10,he modified and also put a good plinth but sold because was not good TT for him.

I had EMT 950 with Ikeda and i didn't liked while i have a friend with Versa Dynamic 2.0 and also EMT 950 and loves it.
Other 2 friends with Micro 5000,one loves it and other sold because didn't liked

So while on new TT we all are agree about sound of SME,Kronos,Techdas,Bergmann,Kuzma,ecc,ecc,on old TT everyone has different opinion and experience.
Very interesting

 

[spiritofmusic]

Gian, this is one of the big reasons why I went for my Trans Fi Salvation direct rim drive, and may trade up to the Audiosilente Blackstone.
Both are ground-up new designs, extrapolated from traditional existing idlers.

 

[bonzo75]

The situation of this old TT is very strange and funny,everyone has different experience.

I had,for some change,401 Loricraft with sme 312,but i sold immediately because i didn't like,while i was very surprised of Swissonor td 124 and i bought.

My friend has TW Acustic Raven Black night and 301 restored in England and SP 10 mk II and he prefers much more this 2 than TW Acustic
He loves a lot also Technics sp 10 and he bought also MK III and will buy the new,While i listen 2 times SP 10 from other 2 friends and i didn't liked
My friend Pietro had SP 10,he modified and also put a good plinth but sold because was not good TT for him.

I had EMT 950 with Ikeda and i didn't liked while i have a friend with Versa Dynamic 2.0 and also EMT 950 and loves it.
Other 2 friends with Micro 5000,one loves it and other sold because didn't liked

So while on new TT we all are agree about sound of SME,Kronos,Techdas,Bergmann,Kuzma,ecc,ecc,on old TT everyone has different opinion and experience.
Very interesting

Old TTs each restore will be different.

I don't think people agree on new TTs either.

 

[gian60]

I am curious to listen Torqueo,old design but built new with very good material.
Could be Blackstone is better,but also cost 3 times more

 

[awsmone]

I also think it is like a girlfriend you need to live with them past the initial Love affair to know if they are a keeper

I am sure we have all had examples where the initial exaltation wears thin after a while ...

I think Ked, that s a bit of a problem with your sampling technique ....long term Love , especially since you dumped Christoph poor guy ....