Zero-Distortion: Visit to Mike Lavigne - Saskia vs CS Port vs NVS, DaVa, Etsuro, Primary Control

[KeithR]

i have before, on my blog and posts. Can’t do it each time. You you can search. You can also read Fremer’s review page 4 which I completely concur with. Think it’s the most negative review he has ever written.

He also loves analytical sounding Lyra carts but people seem to give him a pass on it. He even loved the tipped up ones like the Titan.

i think your swipe at DD tables in general was somewhat odd not in light of the GPA that you don’t prefer but just as a TT asset class.

 

[bonzo75]

He also loves analytical sounding Lyra carts but people seem to give him a pass on it. He even loved the tipped up ones like the Titan.

i think your swipe at DD tables in general was somewhat odd not in light of the GPA that you don’t prefer but just as a TT asset class.

Actually I received PMs from those who have a lot of exposure with Technics, some Japanese tables, Monaco, if NVS sounds like a CD Player. It doesn't. Also, the stop start hunt seek has been written on this forum many times. So this was also typically addressing it, that I feel very strongly it has flow and on that aspect does not lose anything to a belt on that ground.

Regarding what Fremer loves is different from what he doesn't and what he chose to be very critical about.

The article starts with do stereotypes of drives hold true is what I went to check at Mike’s. Answer is no.

Irrespective of whether what one thinks of different DD models, you can't deny that is the negative stereotype of DD

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i think past a certain quality point, drive type artifacts can recede. which was my thinking assembling my group of 3 turntables. yet living with them and playing them daily, subtle drive type attributes are appreciated.

i'm not using price as the 'marker', as these days it's so fluid as to why a turntable is 6 figure's plus expensive.

if people could erase their previous knowledge of the Wave Kinetics NVS, then it was introduced fresh and new right now for $175k, it would be easy to see it there with those other fresh turntables seeking 'uber' status. if any of those are worth it, so is the NVS. it plays at that level. and it's industrial design is second to none.

yet we do remember it and therefore categorize it. marketing reality.

 

[Ron Resnick]

He also loves analytical sounding Lyra carts but people seem to give him a pass on it. He even loved the tipped up ones like the Titan.

I think that’s a little unfair. Michael Fremer does not consider those cartridges to be “analytical“ and “tipped up.” He genuinely likes them.

I understand, after reading Michael's reviews for so long, where his personal sonic references lie. So I know that if Michael likes the Lyra Atlas, then I almost certainly would find it a little bit too cool and analytical for me. (And numerous auditions with the Lyra Atlas have proven this out.) I don’t consider Michael's genuine personal affection for the sound of those cartridges to be suspect in any way.

 

[morricab]

if Ked took videos in my room, i never observed him doing it. i told him i was fine either way. he always sat in the sweet spot everyone behind him.

as far as the video's maybe not representing my whole room, we never spoke about that part. is it a different method with large rooms and tall speakers? i have no idea.

i was actually curious exactly how video's are properly done and then up loaded, so would have been ok if he had done some....i might have learned about how to do them.

in any case nothing nefarious about it. ask Bob, or Erik, or Mark, or Jeff. maybe they saw him take some.

I think he just uses a phone…

 

[morricab]

The voyd reference was quite a different beast with its massive papst motors and huge power supply

Heard it at Black Forest Audio many moons ago. Don’t remember too much other than it sounded very alive and was part of the reason I bought a Voyd. Not sure if the reference would have had a similar issue once lived with for a while.

 

[morricab]

Actually I received PMs from those who have a lot of exposure with Technics, some Japanese tables, Monaco, if NVS sounds like a CD Player. It doesn't. Also, the stop start hunt seek has been written on this forum many times. So this was also typically addressing it, that I feel very strongly it has flow and on that aspect does not lose anything to a belt on that ground.

Regarding what Fremer loves is different from what he doesn't and what he chose to be very critical about.

The article starts with do stereotypes of drives hold true is what I went to check at Mike’s. Answer is no.

Irrespective of whether what one thinks of different DD models, you can't deny that is the negative stereotype of DD

The hunt/seek phenomenon in early DD was solved by later Japanese decks. Technics from the past also never went to a coreless/slotless motor (They do now in their new models) that limited their potential. The question is whether or not the learnings of the past were brought forward to the present, because, unlike belt or idler drive, it requires serious sophistication to get it right.
Both Brinkmann and Primary Control prefer low torque and some platter mass to lessen the need for tight (or any) regulation….Monaco seems to use extreme regulation and NVS I don’t know. Kenwood L-07 had a multi layered approach and JVC/Yamaha had a bi-directional approach they claimed eliminated over and undershoot of speed accuracy, thereby eliminating “hunting “.

 

[christoph]

I think that’s a little unfair. Michael Fremer does not consider those cartridges to be “analytical“ and “tipped up.” He genuinely likes them.

I understand, after reading Michael's reviews for so long, where his personal sonic references lie. So I know that if Michael likes the Lyra Atlas, then I almost certainly would find it a little bit too cool and analytical for me. (And numerous auditions with the Lyra Atlas have proven this out.) I don’t consider Michael's genuine personal affection for the sound of those cartridges to be suspect in any way.

Have you already listened to the Lyra Atlas Lambda SL?
IME the Lambda versions are a step in the right direction sonically compared with the non-lambda versions

 

[richardk]

morricab​

I'm not sure if it is ok for me to comment here. If I'm breaking rules please let me know.

Current DD designers are standing on the shoulders of those who have gone before.
Accumulated knowledge is pivotal in getting DD's to perform well.

Good PID controllers when properly programmed to match the drive's metrics do not hunt.....
BUT It's no secret that I subscribe to the powerful motor camp in my designs, where it dominates the platter. Inertia isn't enough to ride the torque demand waves caused by stylus drag. That said, when using this high torque approach, there is nowhere to hide. This is why we spent 18 months refining the program of K3 It is also why I consider W&F measurements, using steady state tones irrelevant as they aren't an accurate measure of what happens when playing a record. The drive needs to be able to hold speed under this dynamic load, not an easy task. Check out this video, it nicely demonstrates what a drive needs to cope with. Note how the floating arm is at times held against the tank wall and also how fast it shifts left and right. Accelerating the mass of the arm horizontally and the weight in the water beaker vertically. Energy to do this has to come from the drive, in real time.
??????????? ???? ??? ???????? - YouTube

 

[108CY]

Heard it at Black Forest Audio many moons ago. Don’t remember too much other than it sounded very alive and was part of the reason I bought a Voyd. Not sure if the reference would have had a similar issue once lived with for a while.

Very different I have Guy Adams personal Voyd reference with the gigantic X 3, 3HP papst motors and with special parts in the power supply its quite a thing with a rebuilt Kondo Japan Io Ltd Field coil cartridge.

 

[PeterA]

Very different I have Guy Adams personal Voyd reference with the gigantic papst motors and with special parts in the power supply its quite a thing with a rebuilt Kondo Japan Io Ltd Field coil

Mik, what is the function of the field coil in this turntable?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Have you already listened to the Lyra Atlas Lambda SL?
IME the Lambda versions are a step in the right direction sonically compared with the non-lambda versions

I agree. Before the Lambda I definitely preferred the Etna and, especially, the Etna SL, over the Atlases I had heard.

 

[pcosta]

Mik, what is the function of the field coil in this turntable?

I believe Mik is talking about the cartridge with that turntable. Kondo had at one time a field coil cartridge.

 

[108CY]

Mik, what is the function of the field coil in this turntable?

Its a cartridge sorry its quite well known to any one from that era, the first versions were designed by Kondo San in Japan Audio Note Uk went on to produce it and still do to this very day quite different from the original.

 

[bonzo75]

He also loves analytical sounding Lyra carts but people seem to give him a pass on it. He even loved the tipped up ones like the Titan.

his report of compare of the Allaerts and the Titan favouring the Allaerts was spot on https://www.analogplanet.com/content/allaerts-mc2-finish-gold-phono-cartridge

 

[bonzo75]

I agree. Before the Lambda I definitely preferred the Etna and, especially, the Etna SL, over the Atlases I had heard.

etna SL was just making things more polite and losing the atlas strengths trying to overcome what people did not like about the atlas. I think you will find Lambda is not doing that and is quite better. I haven’t done a direct compare with older models but so far Lambda and Olympos are the only two Lyra i I have enjoyed, though both are different. Fremer’s description of Lambda that a tube has been inserted in the Lyra atlas is accurate I think.

 

[mtemur]

Its a cartridge sorry its quite well known to any one from that era, the first versions were designed by Kondo San in Japan Audio Note Uk went on to produce it and still do to this very day quite different from the original.

 

[bonzo75]

Mik, what is the function of the field coil in this turntable?

we heard the audio note IO Japan field coil at Gians friend Carlo, very musical.

on the DaVa thread it says one AN IO owner compared the two and put his AN IO for sale.

 

[108CY]

we heard the audio note IO Japan field coil at Gians friend Carlo, very musical.

on the DaVa thread it says one AN IO owner compared the two and put his AN IO for sale.

The reality most will be rather long in the tooth this is mostly sold in the early 90s, also there were quite a few versions so not really a commercial thing the Dava can actually be purchased today which is wonderful for everyone to enjoy filed coils no doubt involve a rare skill set, Audio note Japan will sill rebuild the Io limited at special request.

 

[Kcin]

etna SL was just making things more polite and losing the atlas strengths trying to overcome what people did not like about the atlas. I think you will find Lambda is not doing that and is quite better. I haven’t done a direct compare with older models but so far Lambda and Olympos are the only two Lyra i I have enjoyed, though both are different. Fremer’s description of Lambda that a tube has been inserted in the Lyra atlas is accurate I think.

I found this to be true. I had the Etna SL , Atlas and Atlas Lambda here.

While the Etna SL had its attributes, for me, the Atlas variants were preferable on many fronts. Today the Etsuro Gold offers much of the Etna SL and Atlas in one package.