Greg Weaver Reviews Center Stage 2 In Positive Feedback

[bazelio]

Really? I am not aware that anyone here said there is something wrong with enthusiasm. If there is, then I am enormously guilty of committing to it on a regular basis.

Hyperbole is a different matter. Unlike unbridled enthusiasm, I try to avoid it. Yet I am certain to fail now and then myself.

I'm an unbridled enthusiast myself. In fact, I eagerly await the unmitigated euphoric jubilation which will ensue upon the release of CS3 feet. It seems fair to surmise that the rewards reaped by the then 20 years of R&D will amount to sonic improvements in musical gestalt unrivaled by system component upgrades of 4-5x in relative cost. Let's go!!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bazeilio, haven't you heard of the law of diminishing returns?
More like 3.99-4.99x

 

[bazelio]

Bazeilio, haven't you heard of the law of diminishing returns?
More like 3.99-4.99x

Even so, we could then downgrade our systems by 2-2.5x and yet still end up with overall gains that fall under the "quantum leap" category.

 

[Al M.]

Bazeilio, haven't you heard of the law of diminishing returns?
More like 3.99-4.99x

LOL!

 

[spiritofmusic]

I totally get gear isolation as a fruitful method to reach greater heights w current components than simply upgrading source/amps/spkrs.

I'm one of the more "down the rabbit hole" individuals who has spent as much on my isolation (Stacore platforms/Symposium rack w Rollerblocks/RevOPods spkr feet w Panzerholz) as I have on my sources, as much as on my amps and tubes, as much as on my spkrs and internal mods.

And no doubt plenty look at me and contend this is a wacky priority on spending and decision making.

So I kinda get the message behind what's being argued with re a system being so maximised by CS footers goodness that it prioritises over spending multiples more on that uber spkrs change.

However after hearing what some amazingly over engineered spkrs bring to the party, I do find the premise hard to get my brain around.

Going from my Zus to stellar Apogees planars or SOTA horns is on such a different plane of experience, it's impossible not to be sceptical I'd plump for these ahead of footers, all things being affordable.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Marc, as a guy who has currently been optimising setups for ribbon panels, box and horn speakers I’d suggest that the approach suggested for the review system might be completely on point for that system but would not then be a universal thing at all.

There’s a whole different strategy with the hierarchy of (dare I use the word) tweaks likely in context for horns than there is for many panels... and plenty of different potential outcomes for different kinds of box speakers. Speakers that reveal the most will be different kettles of fish than other speakers with voicing that seem less impacted by changes upstream.

Overall I have shifted to using more of my isolation devices (me the ultra 5 dinosaur lol) under my amp and other components whereas with the Maggie 20.7s in the double columns of ultra 5s underneath were king and by far the most effective spend of these. The Maggies just love the Stillpoints Ultra 5s and they really gave them that extra reach and control at both ends of the spectrum.

Every setup is just going to give a different outcome in regards to priorities and hierarchies with regards to using isolation IMO. I’d love to try the CS1.5s but perhaps sometime after the recent Pap horn, LM508IA and Harbeth 40.2 buying spree shifts into a more distant and seemingly affordable memory.

 

[Elliot G.]

Hello Elliot, while I agree with your sentiment entirely, I think you are stopping short of what the laws or reason and logic dictate....

You say, "If you have not heard the product/products in question in your system or a system that you are very familiar with then it really makes it difficult to have an accurate opportunity to know what it does."

I have to insist that never having heard the item under examination, it does not just make "...it difficult to have an accurate opportunity to know what it does.," it makes it impossible. But, thank you for bringing some reason and focus back to this discussion. My beef with this thread isn't whether someone agree with my findings or should buy and use these footers, but rather, just what I stated here. If you've NOT heard it, there is no way you can know, therefore your opinions on what it sounds like are meaningless. You want to express your opinion on how they look, on their color, on their price, shucks, even on how they are packaged? Go for it. If you have questions, ask. But don't pretend to know how they sound... ;-)

I was trying to be polite and kind however I do agree with you it is impossible!
This has nothing to do with the products in question but Mr. Von Schweikert made a point i very much agree with. Just by purchasing something , one piece or portion of a system, will not guarantee that the entire system will be vastly improved. If you have crap in you will get crap out. If your speakers are not placed properly you will not get great sound. If your room is flawed you will hear flaws. If you don't solve the issues the accessories and new items you buy will only change/cover/distort/color differently the issues that are still present.

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm an unbridled enthusiast myself. In fact, I eagerly await the unmitigated euphoric jubilation which will ensue upon the release of CS3 feet. It seems fair to surmise that the rewards reaped by the then 20 years of R&D will amount to sonic improvements in musical gestalt unrivaled by system component upgrades of 4-5x in relative cost. Let's go!![/QUOTE

I feel this comment is unnecessary and unwarranted and requires a reply. It was you I believe who asked the question of Joe that if he spent the last 17 years developing the CS foot how could he so quickly bring the CS2 foot to market, only to follow with comment which IMO is grossly unfair and unwarranted.

"IF" you had read my post correctly you would have seen that Joe "stated that the CS was the best product he has brought to market over the years NOT that it took 17 years to develop. Also IF you had read further Joe stated that the idea of improving the CS to version 2 came to him almost by serendipity and he sees absolutely no way that any further improvement to CS2 can be made. This has been stated here several times yet "you" continue to fan the flames.

I suggest that if you are going to post replies to existing posts that you get the facts correct. All I see now is not an enthusiast but someone looking to stir the pot

 

[AudioAnalyst]

I was trying to be polite and kind however I do agree with you it is impossible!
This has nothing to do with the products in question but Mr. Von Schweikert made a point i very much agree with. Just by purchasing something , one piece or portion of a system, will not guarantee that the entire system will be vastly improved. If you have crap in you will get crap out. If your speakers are not placed properly you will not get great sound. If your room is flawed you will hear flaws. If you don't solve the issues the accessories and new items you buy will only change/cover/distort/color differently the issues that are still present.

Hello again, Elliot!

First, thank you for taking my response in the spirit it was intended... I was not in any way trying to demean what you had said, or in some manner hold you up as a "liar" or to in some manner, assault you for somehow making "false statements." That, however, is how some members here on this forum would respond and believe that passes as "debate." Some of these members would see my response attempting to simply offer clarity to your point as an "attack," and chose to redirect the discussion on how they were victims rather than debate the point - that no firsthand experience means it is impossible to have valid opinion on the sonic's, not just making it difficult to do so. They would flail and rave that they were being attacked personally, rather than have the ability or sense to stay on point and defend what they had said, because, well, they either prefer the drama or simply don't understand persuasive communication or the fundamentals of debating.

Second, thanks for taking the time to post this. I sincerely believe that open, intelligent, and honest conversation and debate are good for our hobby and such forums. As I said above, what irritates me is when those responding completely ignore the facts or points that are directly under discussion, try to change the topics so they don't have to acknowledge that they have no way of defending or supporting something that is clearly contrary to their beliefs or to something foolish they may have said, or try to derail the actual points under examination by changing the topic or trying to talk about something else rather than deal with the faults that have been exposed in their arguments.

I am grateful that you were comfortable enough to express, with common courtesy, that yes, you were just trying to be less controversial... Perhaps, as Damon said yesterday, there are readers who have relevant questions and input but fail to engage because of those kinds of irrational behaviors. Regardless, thanks for posting and understanding what I meant and not seeing it as some form of attack.

 

[joelavrencik]

I totally get gear isolation as a fruitful method to reach greater heights w current components than simply upgrading source/amps/spkrs.

I'm one of the more "down the rabbit hole" individuals who has spent as much on my isolation (Stacore platforms/Symposium rack w Rollerblocks/RevOPods spkr feet w Panzerholz) as I have on my sources, as much as on my amps and tubes, as much as on my spkrs and internal mods.

And no doubt plenty look at me and contend this is a wacky priority on spending and decision making.

So I kinda get the message behind what's being argued with re a system being so maximised by CS footers goodness that it prioritises over spending multiples more on that uber spkrs change.

However after hearing what some amazingly over engineered spkrs bring to the party, I do find the premise hard to get my brain around.

Going from my Zus to stellar Apogees planars or SOTA horns is on such a different plane of experience, it's impossible not to be sceptical I'd plump for these ahead of footers, all things being affordable.

Spiritofmusic

I really like this post because in simple terms you encapsulate the singular issue that non-users understandably “can’t wrap their head around”, how can a foot produce a 2x, 3x………7x improvement in your system.

So, I’m going to jump on this post, but I want you to know that this is absolutely NOT pointed at you. This is me reaching out to the broad WBF audience……… I come in peace.

What if I came at it a different way and said, they don’t. The foot isn’t doing it. This is impossible. Feet don’t make music.

If I said that, you would ask yourself, then what is causing this effect. The answer is, your components are doing it. Your electronics, feeding the signal to your loudspeakers are making the 2x, 3x…….7x improvement.

From the beginning of the V1 thread, my thesis has been that electronics (and turntables and loudspeakers, and recordings etc.) have undergone tremendous improvements in recent years and guys who do what I do have been the laggards in this industry. Our inability to develop mechanical designs that support advanced electrical devices has imposed an unimagined penalty on those devices.

What people can’t wrap their head around is the magnitude of the penalty imposed by poorly designed feet.

Think about an Indy 500 where all of the cars are running on fiat 500 tires. The tires would have absolutely no impact on the tremendous advancements achieved in every other aspect of the car. It’s just that you could never reach the true design potential of the car to experience its capability because of the penalty imposed by the tires. Justin and I used existing physics to redesign a “tire” that can allow the “car” to run at/near its true potential. And the magnitude of the improvement is probably more shocking than the Indy car analogy. Who knew?

So, when you say, I don’t believe a foot can do this, what you are really saying is, I don’t believe my components can do it. I don’t believe my components are capable of a 2x, 3x…….7x improvement.

Simply put, in most cases, they are. I hope this helped.

All the Best

Joe

 

[AudioAnalyst]

I feel this comment is unnecessary and unwarranted and requires a reply. It was you I believe who asked the question of Joe that if he spent the last 17 years developing the CS foot how could he so quickly bring the CS2 foot to market, only to follow with comment which IMO is grossly unfair and unwarranted.

"IF" you had read my post correctly you would have seen that Joe "stated that the CS was the best product he has brought to market over the years NOT that it took 17 years to develop. Also IF you had read further Joe stated that the idea of improving the CS to version 2 came to him almost by serendipity and he sees absolutely no way that any further improvement to CS2 can be made. This has been stated here several times yet "you" continue to fan the flames.

I suggest that if you are going to post replies to existing posts that you get the facts correct. All is see now is not an enthusiast but someone looking to stir the pot.




Steve, I loudly applaud your taking this kind of irresponsible posting to task. While I get the attempt at humor, the facts clearly posted earlier in this thread, which completely invalidate it, are ignored. It is my sincerest hope that the more earnest members of this forum will rally behind your lead and simply call people on such false and irrational comments. I REALLY believe that such behavior would cause an abatement of some of the self-serving and irrational threads like those I've been involved with over the past few days.

Have a great weekend everyone. I have work to do... More later.

 

[bazelio]

"IF" you had read my post correctly you would have seen that Joe "stated that the CS was the best product he has brought to market over the years NOT that it took 17 years to develop.

Joe didn't say "best product" in 18 years.

I read that as "the product of 18 years of experimentation and development". Why shouldn't I?

Steve, like it or not, appearances aren't very palatable here as I've detailed in private email. I'm definitely not the only one who sees it, and I hope you take the feedback seriously.

 

[Ultrafast69]

Well Joe, the thanks goes to you for the accolades bestowed in yr previous post. It's good for grown men to publicly display emotion. Especially those in this hobby.

It’s not a hobby, it’s an addiction

 

[joelavrencik]

Joe didn't say "best product" in 18 years.

I read that as "the product of 18 years of experimentation and development". Why shouldn't I?

Steve, like it or not, appearances aren't very palatable here as I've detailed in private email. I'm definitely not the only one who sees it, and I hope you take the feedback seriously.

Hi bazelio

CS is derivative of all of my work over the last 18 years. This encompasses experimentation and development in isolation and constrained layer damping support systems over that period. This work informed the development of CS. The current design comes directly from my work with the OLYMPYUS design. OLYMPUS informed Center Stage. Justin aided the final development by applying insights his Ph.D. EE work. I think CS is my best work because of its effectiveness on a broad range of surfaces with a broad range of components.

The V2 breakthrough was serendipitous as I've mentioned. I hope this helps.

All the Best,

Joe

 

[joelavrencik]

Hi bazelio

CS is derivative of all of my work over the last 18 years. This encompasses experimentation and development in isolation and constrained layer damping support systems over that period. This work informed the development of CS. The current design comes directly from my work with the OLYMPYUS design. OLYMPUS informed Center Stage. Justin aided the final development by applying insights his Ph.D. EE work. I think CS is my best work because of its effectiveness on a broad range of surfaces with a broad range of components.

The V2 breakthrough was serendipitous as I've mentioned. I hope this helps.

All the Best,

Joe

I should have mentioned that I view OLYMPUS as my masterwork. I don't know how to build anything better for high end audio. The thing is that OLYMPUS is expensive because it is virtually hand made. A set of 4 Center Stage is about 1/10th the cost of 1 level of OLYMPUS. So, I think Center Stage is my best work for several reasons.

 

[Elliot G.]

Hello again, Elliot!

First, thank you for taking my response in the spirit it was intended... I was not in any way trying to demean what you had said, or in some manner hold you up as a "liar" or to in some manner, assault you for somehow making "false statements." That, however, is how some members here on this forum would respond and believe that passes as "debate." Some of these members would see my response attempting to simply offer clarity to your point as an "attack," and chose to redirect the discussion on how they were victims rather than debate the point - that no firsthand experience means it is impossible to have valid opinion on the sonic's, not just making it difficult to do so. They would flail and rave that they were being attacked personally, rather than have the ability or sense to stay on point and defend what they had said, because, well, they either prefer the drama or simply don't understand persuasive communication or the fundamentals of debating.

Second, thanks for taking the time to post this. I sincerely believe that open, intelligent, and honest conversation and debate are good for our hobby and such forums. As I said above, what irritates me is when those responding completely ignore the facts or points that are directly under discussion, try to change the topics so they don't have to acknowledge that they have no way of defending or supporting something that is clearly contrary to their beliefs or to something foolish they may have said, or try to derail the actual points under examination by changing the topic or trying to talk about something else rather than deal with the faults that have been exposed in their arguments.

I am grateful that you were comfortable enough to express, with common courtesy, that yes, you were just trying to be less controversial... Perhaps, as Damon said yesterday, there are readers who have relevant questions and input but fail to engage because of those kinds of irrational behaviors. Regardless, thanks for posting and understanding what I meant and not seeing it as some form of attack.

I think that I joined this site to try to communicate with other people interested in some of the same things i was. Over the last year I have reentered the business of audio and started an import and distribution company for some of IMO the worlds best products and companies. I have been around the Industry for a very long time and have had enough experiences that I know that I am not singular in my love of music or that I am the only one that can make a system sound good. I find it disheartening that many hear don't have the same background and experience yet they want to bark like they have an attack everything. I find that ugly. In life learning is a good thing and can only help you enjoy not only audio but other things as we grow. I have wanted to resign from this site many times thinking it was a total waste of time because when trying to explain what i know and have experienced that there are those who just want to argue and fight whether they have any clue what they are talking about or not. Audio has many intelligent and passionate individuals and most of them really care about their products, customers and systems. The others who are unhappy and just have money and are searching for mysteries without any clues try to disrupt and confuse the conversations. This is a great disservice for those who do want to learn and grown. A few years back I went to work for a watch company. I had been in this as a hobby throughout my life. I knew a little however I realized that was the extent of my knowledge and experience. Just because I had owned a few nice watches certainly did not qualify me as an expert or someone who's opinion mattered. I did not know the history, how we got to where we are today. Why things were made the way they are and how this all came to be. Audio is exactly the same but in a different way. History is important and ready what Joe for example has contributed has certainly perked my interest in trying his products sometime in the future. I may know a lot about audio but I know very little about what he built and how he came to design and produce it. Maybe I ll like it, maybe I won't but I can't ever make a comment without experiencing it.

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm looking forward to visiting you and hearing your great products Elliot . I totally agree with your post above BTW

 

[ack]

I just read the review - not sure what the fuss is all about. It's enthusiastic, but so what, so many other reviews are, and the product could be just as exceptional as described. Moreover, if Soulution are including them in their new products, that says quite a bit. And if others are to follow suit, it feels like they probably hear something great as well.

Granted, I have also heard negative comments about this product from people I know, but perhaps performance is context sensitive.

Nonetheless, the review appears heart-felt.

 

[Mobiusman]

I am very excited for you that you will be putting together the best and final system of your life!!!

Will you be putting your components (on the CS footers) on CMS equipment stands?

Ron, I wish I could afford the CMS racks at this time, but the speakers, VAC equipment and the MB loom are over a $400k upgrade and I am just a poor psychiatrist.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I'm an unbridled enthusiast myself. In fact, I eagerly await the unmitigated euphoric jubilation which will ensue upon the release of CS3 feet. It seems fair to surmise that the rewards reaped by the then 20 years of R&D will amount to sonic improvements in musical gestalt unrivaled by system component upgrades of 4-5x in relative cost. Let's go!!

Please let's cease the snooty-snogging (in this instance - sarcasm).