On the subject of tweaks!

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter,
This is such an essential concept of our hobby and one that is rarely, if ever, talked about. Over time we generally buy components that are always supposedly better than the last (or else we wouldn't buy them, right?) But then it may occur later, we come to the uneasy awareness we took one step backwards or sideways rather than one step forward. And that, as we all know, is frustrating as hell. The main reason these mis-steps occur is expectation bias that the new purchase is surely better, and that is not easily overcome. Indeed when it finally occurs, we slap ourselves in the forehead and say "idiot, what was I thinking?".
Ah the joys of our hobby.
Thanks for reminding me I'm not alone here.
Marty

or, we own stuff very long term, and.......then......we upgrade within a brand and even then not in any knee jerk fashion but with much consideration. since we are not changing from a position of dis-satisfaction.

it seems it's more typical that after a period of exploring; most of us settle into our gear groove and then fine tune and tweak. the exception being digital and arms/cartridges. speakers, amps, preamps, tt's......typically long term choices.

lots of circular action finding our grooves, finding our reference, but then mostly linear directions. maybe there is a separate pathway for some who are wedded to brick and mortar dealer upgrade rhythms......but i'm not personally around much of that.

backward and sideways i think relates to a struggle to establish a clear reference/preference. or maybe trying to get a room to work or overcome some limitation and it not quite working.

at least among the audiophiles i interact with this looks like what happens. as far as tweak miss steps.......i'd agree most of us have a tweak drawer that hold lots of retired stuff. and we often re purpose those items. i see that as normal to the process of personal system optimization. as our systems are dynamically interconnected there is a trial and error method. or we delegate these decisions to some superior entity who clearly knows better.

and the most dynamic variable is, of course, ourselves. our expectations and even musical preferences evolve and adjust based on our feelings and exposure to new ideas.....or even lifestyle changes.

we try something, or move away from something, based on an outside influence.....then we reassess and maybe revert back to where our own feelings had brought us. this takes time. Peter's long and winding road.

 

[bazelio]

II would bet if the Ching Cheng PC that David speaks of and I also use, is repackaged it could easily sell for many 100’s of times what it costs to buy

Have you tried MB Ultra PCs?

 

[Steve Williams]

Have you tried MB Ultra PCs?

I own three of them

Two for my amp and one for the Extreme

 

[Hieukm]

I believe this belong to a member here:
"A’phile friend of mine brought over some of the inexpensive Ching Cheng pc’s tonight. We listened to them against a number of other pc’s --from Zen Wave, Black Cat, Synergistic, Cardas, Nordost and Audience. Interestingly...the Ching Chengs were basically junk in my system. Resolution dropped like a stone, frequency extension was non-existent, imaging diffuse, plus it was quite obvious that these inexpensive cables were no different than the stock ones supplied by all manufacturers’ to at least give you the ability to hook up power!
My friend left the Ching Chengs with me...to throw into the bin.
Even the entry level Cardas cables had it all over them..Moral of the story, at least in this case, is you get what you pay for."

 

[bonzo75]

What is the rest of his system and what does he listen to?

 

[ddk]

I believe this belong to a member here:
"A’phile friend of mine brought over some of the inexpensive Ching Cheng pc’s tonight. We listened to them against a number of other pc’s --from Zen Wave, Black Cat, Synergistic, Cardas, Nordost and Audience. Interestingly...the Ching Chengs were basically junk in my system. Resolution dropped like a stone, frequency extension was non-existent, imaging diffuse, plus it was quite obvious that these inexpensive cables were no different than the stock ones supplied by all manufacturers’ to at least give you the ability to hook up power!
My friend left the Ching Chengs with me...to throw into the bin.
Even the entry level Cardas cables had it all over them..Moral of the story, at least in this case, is you get what you pay for."

Thank God for that! And you’re right on the money Hieukm, pun intended !
If you follow the thread CC’s strength is that it does nothing, had you found that CC beat your do something cords at what you and your friend were listening for then I had to throw all my CC in the bin and started from scratch again. And you’re right about stock cords their only trick should be to hook up power, anything more is undesirable in this case.
david

 

[marty]

I believe this belong to a member here:
"A’phile friend of mine brought over some of the inexpensive Ching Cheng pc’s tonight. We listened to them against a number of other pc’s --from Zen Wave, Black Cat, Synergistic, Cardas, Nordost and Audience. Interestingly...the Ching Chengs were basically junk in my system. Resolution dropped like a stone, frequency extension was non-existent, imaging diffuse, plus it was quite obvious that these inexpensive cables were no different than the stock ones supplied by all manufacturers’ to at least give you the ability to hook up power!
My friend left the Ching Chengs with me...to throw into the bin.
Even the entry level Cardas cables had it all over them..Moral of the story, at least in this case, is you get what you pay for."

Hieukm

If your CC's look like the one's Steve posted, I'm happy to buy them. PM me please. Happy to take them off your hands.

 

[marty]

or, we own stuff very long term, and.......then......we upgrade within a brand and even then not in any knee jerk fashion but with much consideration. since we are not changing from a position of dis-satisfaction.

it seems it's more typical that after a period of exploring; most of us settle into our gear groove and then fine tune and tweak. the exception being digital and arms/cartridges. speakers, amps, preamps, tt's......typically long term choices.

lots of circular action finding our grooves, finding our reference, but then mostly linear directions. maybe there is a separate pathway for some who are wedded to brick and mortar dealer upgrade rhythms......but i'm not personally around much of that.

backward and sideways i think relates to a struggle to establish a clear reference/preference. or maybe trying to get a room to work or overcome some limitation and it not quite working.

at least among the audiophiles i interact with this looks like what happens. as far as tweak miss steps.......i'd agree most of us have a tweak drawer that hold lots of retired stuff. and we often re purpose those items. i see that as normal to the process of personal system optimization. as our systems are dynamically interconnected there is a trial and error method. or we delegate these decisions to some superior entity who clearly knows better.

and the most dynamic variable is, of course, ourselves. our expectations and even musical preferences evolve and adjust based on our feelings and exposure to new ideas.....or even lifestyle changes.

we try something, or move away from something, based on an outside influence.....then we reassess and maybe revert back to where our own feelings had brought us. this takes time. Peter's long and winding road.

You're far more articulate on this subject than me Mike, and spot on.

 

[bazelio]

CC's are good but not great in my system. They're reserved and polite. Not egregiously so, but noticeably. Some of the life of the music is sucked out with CCs in place. They also constrict the sound somewhat. I.e. with better PCs, the sound opens up and fills the room, but not with the CCs. I did however find them preferable to other cheap cords. They're also better than some expensive cords; one example being the High Fidelity Reveal.

 

[NorthStar]

Hieukm

If your CC's look like the one's Steve posted, I'm happy to buy them. PM me please. Happy to take them off your hands.

Marty, it would be fairer for everyone if he would put them in a public auction.

 

[KeithR]

CC's are good but not great in my system. They're reserved and polite. Not egregiously so, but noticeably. Some of the life of the music is sucked out with CCs in place. They also constrict the sound somewhat. I.e. with better PCs, the sound opens up and fills the room, but not with the CCs. I did however find them preferable to other cheap cords. They're also better than some expensive cords; one example being the High Fidelity Reveal.

I generally agree with this although David would say that's why they are "neutral." I did prefer them to top $ Kubala Sosna. Ymmv and all that jazz.

 

[bazelio]

Horses for courses. I got my CC's from David, so they should be the 'right' ones. They're neutral tonally from what I recall. But not by other measures. Using David's vernacular, they're under-hyped. ;-)

PS I don't dislike them. I just found others I prefer more.

 

[microstrip]

I own three of them

Two for my amp and one for the Extreme

Curiously I would expect that electronics having tube rectifiers would be the much less sensitive to power cables than other electronics - I mainly use the CC's with Lamm. Did you try the Ultra's with the DAC?

 

[NorthStar]

Francisco, I think I might have found a power cable for you ...
• https://www.amazon.com/Youkamoo-12AWG-Audiophile-Hi-Fi-Copper/dp/B07JH2C685

 

[Steve Williams]

Curiously I would expect that electronics having tube rectifiers would be the much less sensitive to power cables than other electronics - I mainly use the CC's with Lamm. Did you try the Ultra's with the DAC?

On my present DAC I use CC PC's

 

[asiufy]

I generally agree with this although David would say that's why they are "neutral." I did prefer them to top $ Kubala Sosna. Ymmv and all that jazz.

You heard Emotion, (then) $1000 for the 1st meter. Far, far from "top $" as far as power cables are concerned.

And I don't find CC neutral in the least, in the two (three if you count speaker rotation) systems I've heard.

 

[microstrip]

or, we own stuff very long term, and.......then......we upgrade within a brand and even then not in any knee jerk fashion but with much consideration. since we are not changing from a position of dis-satisfaction.

it seems it's more typical that after a period of exploring; most of us settle into our gear groove and then fine tune and tweak. the exception being digital and arms/cartridges. speakers, amps, preamps, tt's......typically long term choices.

lots of circular action finding our grooves, finding our reference, but then mostly linear directions. maybe there is a separate pathway for some who are wedded to brick and mortar dealer upgrade rhythms......but i'm not personally around much of that.

backward and sideways i think relates to a struggle to establish a clear reference/preference. or maybe trying to get a room to work or overcome some limitation and it not quite working.

at least among the audiophiles i interact with this looks like what happens. as far as tweak miss steps.......i'd agree most of us have a tweak drawer that hold lots of retired stuff. and we often re purpose those items. i see that as normal to the process of personal system optimization. as our systems are dynamically interconnected there is a trial and error method. or we delegate these decisions to some superior entity who clearly knows better.

and the most dynamic variable is, of course, ourselves. our expectations and even musical preferences evolve and adjust based on our feelings and exposure to new ideas.....or even lifestyle changes.

we try something, or move away from something, based on an outside influence.....then we reassess and maybe revert back to where our own feelings had brought us. this takes time. Peter's long and winding road.

Yes, evolution is a natural part of this hobby and for most of us differences are needed to keep our interest high. It is an intrinsic part of the process of stereo reproduction, as I often write ... Most of the time tweaks are just a simple way of feeding our need for difference - and after some time they are replaced with new tweaks.

I have no doubt that unless we have a significant amount of listening time on a particular tweak most of what we perceive is due to suggestion or wrong listening technique - for example the warm up effects of most tube electronics are an order of magnitude higher than the tweak itself, the precedence effect or just changes in music during the listening are enough to fool us. Tweak evaluation is not an easy job and conflicts with music listening!

The value of a superior entity only shows in pointing us clearly a line between many others to follow and the why's - it is our duty to analyze it and decide if the shown perspective has the probability of pleasing our preferences. It is why as much as possible information is needed and it is one of the reasons why WBF debates are great, even if sometimes at low signal to noise ratio.

 

[marty]

There's a whole bunch of inexpensive Chinese made PCs out there. Some appear to have good materials and some have obviously fraudulent parts such as the Oyaide connectors (easy to tell by the print on the connectors) but really, who cares? The question is, how do they sound and for <50 bucks, I'd love to find out. But I'm just not willing to invest the time for comparison testing. Perhaps someone is, and you have my encouragement and support for doing so. Who knows, there could be a giant killer among the bunch!

 

[Folsom]

I'd love a CC cable to try, if someone has spare.

 

[DaveC]

Curiously I would expect that electronics having tube rectifiers would be the much less sensitive to power cables than other electronics - I mainly use the CC's with Lamm. Did you try the Ultra's with the DAC?

IMO, it's more LC power supply filters. My SET amp uses a CLCRC filter and tube rectifier and I would say PCs effect dynamics less vs many other amps, but the tonal character of the PC does come through.