Sublime Sound

[ddk]

BTW I am not an educator in audio, just a permanent learner as most of us ...

I know, I meant what I said in a general term because it applies to everything.

david

 

[PeterA]

No Peter, IMHO in this hobby the learning curve starts when we get our first stereo, when we put our imagination at the service of the stereo illusion.

It is clear that you now are wanting something different, and it is great to read about your evolution. But remember that every time we have felt it was more like the real think ...

Fransisco, I hope to be a lifelong learner. My point was that my audio learning had been a pretty straight line and it was not very steep. There were years of what I thought were slow and steady progress. That has changed now. Now, rather than a straight line, there is a curve, and it seems steep. My ears are opening up to a different approach because I have been introduced to a different way of thinking about the audio experience. I was struggling with the conflict between what I have read in magazines and heard from dealers versus what I hear from live performances. The former is so often about individual sonic attributes. The latter is about a more holistic and natural listening experience.

I actually found it pretty difficult to describe in my post above the new sound in my room. Finding the words to describe what I now hear is challenging because the old audiophile attributes I see floating around, and which I used to use freely myself, simply don't come to mind so easily right now. The experience of listening now is much more organic and simple. Individual attributes don't apply. The only real description that comes to mind is "room filling energy". I don't really think of the sound as such now, it is more about the music, the composition, and the joy of expression captured in these recordings.

So sure, it is certainly different, and perhaps I am drawn to that new thing. But, my sense is that there is no going back. As I say, my eyes are wide shut.

 

[dbeau]

I actually found it pretty difficult to describe in my post above the new sound in my room. Finding the words to describe what I now hear is challenging because the old audiophile attributes I see floating around, and which I used to use freely myself, simply don't come to mind so easily right now. The experience of listening now is much more organic and simple. Individual attributes don't apply. The only real description that comes to mind is "room filling energy". I don't really think of the sound as such now, it is more about the music, the composition, and the joy of expression captured in these recordings.

So sure, it is certainly different, and perhaps I am drawn to that new thing. But, my sense is that there is no going back. As I say, my eyes are wide shut.

Geesh! I like (am intrigued) by this. So here I go beginning with (again) speaker placement (600# each) in a good sized and open living room. The attributes reported are my goals. This is what I gain from this forum and the reason for following your experiences and knowledge. It will also give me (and poor wife) a delay in spending 5 figures on subs. THANKS

 

[bonzo75]

Fransisco, I hope to be a lifelong learner. My point was that my audio learning had been a pretty straight line and it was not very steep. There were years of what I thought were slow and steady progress. That has changed now. Now, rather than a straight line, there is a curve, and it seems steep. My ears are opening up to a different approach because I have been introduced to a different way of thinking about the audio experience. I was struggling with the conflict between what I have read in magazines and heard from dealers versus what I hear from live performances. The former is so often about individual sonic attributes. The latter is about a holistic experience.

I actually found it pretty difficult to describe in my post above the new sound in my room. Finding the words to describe what I now hear is challenging because the old audiophile attributes I see floating around, and which I used to use freely myself, simply don't come to mind so easily right now. The experience of listening now is much more organic and simple. Individual attributes don't apply. The only real description that comes to mind is "room filling energy". I don't really think of the sound as such now, it is more about the music, the composition, and the joy of expression captured in these recordings.

So sure, it is certainly different, and perhaps I am drawn to that new thing. But, my sense is that there is no going back. As I say, my eyes are wide shut.

I think I told you that quite often, including when you reported of the upgrade to your speakers and amp, I objected to you saying "after careful consideration", which didn't go down well with you then. Btw the pinpoint imaging you mentioned is not what you hear when you visit the orchestra, but it is the sonic memory of your own set up that you hear day in and out that is much more powerful than a visit once a quarter to the orchestra. The best way to relearn is to sell tour stuff off and reset. It is also less costly and you will get back money you think you will initially lose

 

[PeterA]

I think I told you that quite often, including when you reported of the upgrade to your speakers and amp, I objected to you saying "after careful consideration", which didn't go down well with you then. Btw the pinpoint imaging you mentioned is not what you hear when you visit the orchestra, but it is the sonic memory of your own set up that you hear day in and out that is much more powerful than a visit once a quarter to the orchestra. The best way to relearn is to sell tour stuff off and reset. It is also less costly and you will get back money you think you will initially lose

Kedar, I think the pinpoint imaging I was experiencing was a combination of hearing with my eyes when looking at 50+ members of an orchestra plus the daily experience of hearing my system as it was formerly set up. When I close my eyes in front of an orchestra, or a chamber group, I hear a slightly less focused sound, one that is more similar to what I now hear in my listening room. It is now less "hifi".

I knew these series of posts in which I am openly sharing my experiences would invite comments like your "I told you so". So, let me say now, please don't hold back. I am hear to learn and you seem eager to teach and tell me where I have made mistakes. Sometimes we take the more difficult path toward learning and making mistakes first hand have a more profound impact. Contemplating future gear purchases seems fun, and it is certainly tempting to spend other people's money. There are lots of judges out there. You are one who makes me feel like one of the accused.

 

[PeterA]

Geesh! I like (am intrigued) by this. So here I go beginning with (again) speaker placement (600# each) in a good sized and open living room. The attributes reported are my goals. This is what I gain from this forum and the reason for following your experiences and knowledge. It will also give me (and poor wife) a delay in spending 5 figures on subs. THANKS

Thank you dbeau. It's great when we can learn from others' experiences. I am simply putting into practice, and sharing my impressions of the results, what I have been reading from ddk's posts and comments. This is what gives WBF value.

 

[bonzo75]

Kedar, I think the pinpoint imaging I was experiencing was a combination of hearing with my eyes when looking at 50+ members of an orchestra plus the daily experience of hearing my system as it was formerly set up. When I close my eyes in front of an orchestra, or a chamber group, I hear a slightly less focused sound, one that is more similar to what I now hear in my listening room. It is now less "hifi".

I knew these series of posts in which I am openly sharing my experiences would invite comments like your "I told you so". So, let me say now, please don't hold back. I am hear to learn and you seem eager to teach and tell me where I have made mistakes. Sometimes we take the more difficult path toward learning and making mistakes first hand have a more profound impact. Contemplating future gear purchases seems fun, and it is certainly tempting to spend other people's money. There are lots of judges out there. You are one who makes me feel like one of the accused.

No I just like to say it direct to shock more. I wouldn't have if I thought you couldn't take it. I respect your openness.

 

[microstrip]

(...) My ears are opening up to a different approach because I have been introduced to a different way of thinking about the audio experience. (...)

It was exactly my main point. You are in a new personnel audio experience, focusing in different aspects of sound reproduction. What is astonishing for me is that you just had to change the tonearm and cartridge, take away the room treatments and re-position the speakers, and voilá - natural DDK type sound, even with components I perhaps wrongly considered inadequate for such type of sound reproduction.

Although my experience in this area is limited, I carried some experiences with the Soundlabs, Lamm's and DDK recommended cables using the EMT927/SME 3012R. It is why I valuate your comments and I am asking questions and making comments - you come from a situation similar to mine - mostly classical jazz listener, modern SME turntable and tonearm, network cables and classical top traditional box speakers.

 

[PeterA]

It was exactly my main point. You are in a new personnel audio experience, focusing in different aspects of sound reproduction. What is astonishing for me is that you just had to change the tonearm and cartridge, take away the room treatments and re-position the speakers, and voilá - natural DDK type sound, even with components I perhaps wrongly considered inadequate for such type of sound reproduction.

Although my experience in this area is limited, I carried some experiences with the Soundlabs, Lamm's and DDK recommended cables using the EMT927/SME 3012R. It is why I valuate your comments and I am asking questions and making comments - you come from a situation similar to mine - mostly classical jazz listener, modern SME turntable and tonearm, network cables and classical top traditional box speakers.

I understand now, Franscisco, thank you. I do not know where along the spectrum of hifi to natural sound my system now lies, but it is moving, that I assure you. As time goes on, my views on how certain components, certain brands, or certain typologies, actually sound is evolving too. I have heard so many poorly set up systems, and specific components sound so different in different environments, that I am now thinking that set up may play a more important role in the scheme of things. In fact, this may be the very reason that people with lots of experience end up with systems that are so different, yet they sound convincing. I don't really know.

Your observation about me focusing on different aspects of sound reproduction may also have more to do with what I am hearing than the combination of specific changes that I have made. Again, I don't really know. Sure the sound is different, but the greater impact on my listening may simply be that I am beginning to appreciate different things and letting go of certain audiophile tenets.

Major gear changes are a long way off. I'm just getting used to hearing the music in a new way and I plan to live with this for a while.

 

[PeterA]

No I just like to say it direct to shock more. I wouldn't have if I thought you couldn't take it. I respect your openness.

My newfound openness is a page I tore out of Tango's book. Now, I need to start buying more music.

 

[bonzo75]

My newfound openness is a page I tore out of Tango's book. Now, I need to start buying more music.

Tang is very open. The most open was Bill who overnight sold off his analog domain focal maestro utopia and went AER with Mayer 46.

One of the most well known horn guys in Russia sold off his expensive tidal and gryphon maestro to go AER. That's open. You chase a dream for years and then hear something off your path that stops up and makes you realize you have been in denial. Best is to not continue up a path, pause, and look around to check if a reset is required

 

[ack]

Well done Peter. Drinking this to your health! The appellation's eponymous 2010 is going to have to wait a little longer

 

[adyc]

Peter, I saw that you become the latest disciple of David. I also pretty much converted after David's visit last month. I experience the same after I remove some of room treatments with David's advice. The sound becomes more lively. At the same time, imaging is a bit more diffuse in a good way. Case in point is listening in mono recordings. Before, the sound seems coming from a small point. But now, the size is more natural. It is still dead centre. But it is more like listening in live avenue in close distance not like from 100 feet away.

My speaker is still in toe in position. The sound is good at the moment. I do not have much motivation to try no toe in position. Maybe when David comes to Hong Kong next time, I will ask him to help me on this.

 

[ddk]

It was exactly my main point. You are in a new personnel audio experience, focusing in different aspects of sound reproduction. What is astonishing for me is that you just had to change the tonearm and cartridge, take away the room treatments and re-position the speakers, and voilá - natural DDK type sound, even with components I perhaps wrongly considered inadequate for such type of sound reproduction.

Although my experience in this area is limited, I carried some experiences with the Soundlabs, Lamm's and DDK recommended cables using the EMT927/SME 3012R. It is why I valuate your comments and I am asking questions and making comments - you come from a situation similar to mine - mostly classical jazz listener, modern SME turntable and tonearm, network cables and classical top traditional box speakers.

People have different needs and budgets Francisco, starting point is always optimizing what one has and this is what's happening with Peter, then one can improve and move forward having defined goals and understanding the consequence of each move. I find most tweaks, power cords, etc. as obstacles that one needs to remove to go forward. Peter's journey is pretty straight forward he's only working on his setup which is mostly speaker placement and simple foundation for his existing equipment. I very much doubt that the character of Peter's system has any similarity to mine nor was that ever the goal. His system is high enough quality to sound "Natural" and the goal here was to get there with what he has and understand the process, he might end up with an entirely different system in a year from now but that's a separate decision. It's the exact same process that Anthony, Steve, Chris, Tang and anyone else I worked with, remove obstacles and understand why, equipment changes are secondary.

You & I had some conversations and you purchased a ton of stuff from all over the place but I have no idea where you ended up, if anywhere at all. You own the best of the best already and the EMT 927 is 2nd to none if it's not doing it for you then understand why, seemingly minor things make a big differences.

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) His system is high enough quality to sound "Natural" and the goal here was to get there with what he has and understand the process, he might end up with an entirely different system in a year from now but that's a separate decision. It's the exact same process that Anthony, Steve, Chris, Tang and anyone else I worked with, remove obstacles and understand why, equipment changes are secondary. (...)

David,

It is something that looks bizarre to me. High quality high end equipment is intrinsically tweaked by their designers - Nelson Pass explains it in his manuals, Alon Wolf uses Mundorf components that have tweaked sound signatures, the SME30 platter interface has a tweaked signature and a high feedback motor - now all of them seem acceptable and blessed with natural sound. Is natural sound a system/room property or mainly a listener attitude, a different way of listening to stereo?

Should we hope that top digital will also be considered natural sound soon?

 

[ack]

You & I had some conversations and you purchased a ton of stuff from all over the place but I have no idea where you ended up, if anywhere at all.

Yes, we have seen no pictures of micro's system, nor has anyone ever heard and commented on it. Really curious myself... sounds too much theory and not enough practice

 

[Lagonda]

Yes, we have seen no pictures of micro's system, nor has anyone ever heard and commented on it. Really curious myself... sounds too much theory and not enough practice

I have always appreciated Francisco’s honesty about his
priorities in this hobby.
He once said that the equipment and
playing around with it was the biggest attraction. Never really focused on specific brands or topologies has afforded him a
good hands on general knowledge.
I’m not sure his system setup was ever optimized for vinyl

 

[ddk]

David,

It is something that looks bizarre to me. High quality high end equipment is intrinsically tweaked by their designers - Nelson Pass explains it in his manuals, Alon Wolf uses Mundorf components that have tweaked sound signatures, the SME30 platter interface has a tweaked signature and a high feedback motor - now all of them seem acceptable and blessed with natural sound. Is natural sound a system/room property or mainly a listener attitude, a different way of listening to stereo?

Should we hope that top digital will also be considered natural sound soon?

There are different levels of "Natural" as there are different amounts of coloration and resolution, you minimize the tweaks and set up the speakers and room properly end result is more resolution and less coloration, ie more "Natural". There are actual bad products out there but Pass & Magico while not my taste aren't bad and voicing equipment is very different from aftermarket tweaks, every good piece of gear I know is voiced to some degree what matters is what they're voiced to. You can mess up the best system in the world with wrong power cords, shitty tweaks, wall tampons, poor speaker placement, etc. and many have all those elements in their systems.

There are some CD playback systems that are "natural" and on some recordings have moments that suspend reality but I've not heard anything close to "natural" from streamed media. What's interesting is that the actual digital masters can be quite excellent but there are a lot of elements in the chain that end up killing the sound, at least compared to analog but then there many components to the analog playback too but we've figured most of them out.


david

 

[adyc]

There are different levels of "Natural" as there are different amounts of coloration and resolution, you minimize the tweaks and set up the speakers and room properly end result is more resolution and less coloration, ie more "Natural". There are actual bad products out there but Pass & Magico while not my taste aren't bad and voicing equipment is very different from aftermarket tweaks, every good piece of gear I know is voiced to some degree what matters is what they're voiced to. You can mess up the best system in the world with wrong power cords, shitty tweaks, wall tampons, poor speaker placement, etc. and many have all those elements in their systems.

There are some CD playback systems that are "natural" and on some recordings have moments that suspend reality but I've not heard anything close to "natural" from streamed media. What's interesting is that the actual digital masters can be quite excellent but there are a lot of elements in the chain that end up killing the sound, at least compared to analog but then there many components to the analog playback too but we've figured most of them out.


david

I found modern digital recordings have too much processing to the point that they do not sound natural. I found that many live recordings of classical music in Youtube are more natural although they do not sound good. But definitely, they are more natural. I know that I am hearing piano or violin. But some modern recordings have so much processing that they destroy the timbre quality of the instruments in the records.

 

[ddk]

I found modern digital recordings have too much processing to the point that they do not sound natural. I found that many live recordings of classical music in Youtube are more natural although they do not sound good. But definitely, they are more natural. I know that I am hearing piano or violin. But some modern recordings have so much processing that they destroy the timbre quality of the instruments in the records.

Yes some of the live recordings specially those from analog masters sound surprisingly good on YouTube. The same is true of many early digital transfers those CDs that were copied from analog without heavy manipulations sound really good, compare them to later 16, 21 and 24 bit remastered releases and you can easily hear that every new generation sounded worse than the previous one. That mindset of over processing seems to corrupt everything these days specially audiophile re-issues of old classics.

david