Concentration of wealth

[microstrip]

Wilson has convinced people that the paint matters to sonics. There are people on this site who have liked every Wilson made in the past 30 years, and have never heard a proper horn. Some of them then confuse preference with one sided exposure

Why starting your comment with such abusive misinterpretation of Wilson Audio claims on their speakers paint? On the contrary since long they advertised their paint as being automotive class glossy paint. The main promotional argument of Wilson on their quality glossy paint is good looking and long lasting. They even supply paint kits for owners who need to re-touch their speakers.

And I would love to know what is the percentage - a number please! - of proper horns in the horn world. As far as I can see proper horn it is a rare specimen existing in only a few selected private systems.

Anyway, yes, paint quality is known to affect sound quality in same cases.

 

[bonzo75]

Why starting your comment with such abusive misinterpretation of Wilson Audio claims on their speakers paint? On the contrary since long they advertised their paint as being automotive class glossy paint. The main promotional argument of Wilson on their quality glossy paint is good looking and long lasting. They even supply paint kits for owners who need to re-touch their speakers.

And I would love to know what is the percentage - a number please! - of proper horns in the horn world. As far as I can see proper horn it is a rare specimen existing in only a few selected private systems.

How is the percentage relevant?

 

[microstrip]

How is the percentage relevant?

I didn't ask for relevance , just asked an horn expert for the number!

 

[bonzo75]

I didn't ask for relevance , just asked an horn expert for the number!

Again, not relevant. Higher availability percentages are available for sonically lesser goods with a higher profit percentage that are advertised in mags and at hifi shows for those not willing to do research. But yes, lower percentage is the reason why preference is often confused with lack of exposure

 

[DaveC]

Hi Josh,

Personally, I think this Magnepan 30.7 failure is a great disappointment on many fronts... for magnepan, for harry pearson's legacy (Magnepan is THE archetype for an "absolute sound" speaker), and for the industry as a whole...


There is no doubt that some guys will prefer the new $40k wilson watt puppy and $35K magico s5 to magnepan. Just like togas were popular back in the day to all other clothing, and blue jeans are popular today, the popular taste in speakers today are box speakers. And magico and wilson make fine specimens of those products. Guys who like box speakers are not going wrong with magico or wilson.

But regardless of real-estate requirements of the 30.7, when the new watt puppy sells more in a week than the entire magnepan 30.7 run, and yet magnepan 30.7 competes with $200K+ speakers, and is the epitome of the "absolute sound", it just shows where the industry is...

It just illustrates that high-end audio is a luxury industry driven by herd effects.

Real estate is a major issue...not everyone has the room for dipoles, and imo, unless you do there are better alternatives, which include "box speakers"... or pretty much anything else.

And if you do have room for them, they will dominate the room so not everyone will be willing to sacrifice the space required.

I will say Alsyvox were some of the best speakers I've ever heard, but the design will be a major limitation on sales, same with Maggies.

 

[Gregadd]

Maggie's can be easily moved out of the way when not in use. Just mark the door with some tape.
I don't mean any harm. I am unaware of any serious system that does not dominate the room.
If you hear the Maggies you will buy them.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . I think this Magnepan 30.7 failure

. . .


But regardless of real-estate requirements of the 30.7, when the new watt puppy sells more in a week than the entire magnepan 30.7 run, and yet magnepan 30.7 competes with $200K+ speakers, and is the epitome of the "absolute sound", it just shows where the industry is...

It just illustrates that high-end audio is a luxury industry driven by herd effects.

The Magnepan 30.7 is a failure? According to what definition? On the basis of what evidence?

Unless you are privy to Magnepan’s internal business model and sales projections for this particular model of speaker I think your statement is unsubstantiated and irresponsible.

Assuming you’re correct that Wilson Audio sells more Watt Puppies in a week than Magnepan has sold 30.7s in total (How do you know this anyway? Are these facts or just made up falsehoods?) it tells me nothing at all, other than possibly suggesting that small speakers are more popular than large screen speakers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Wilson has convinced people that the paint matters to sonics. . . .

What is your evidence for this assertion?

 

[josh358]

Hi Josh,

Personally, I think this Magnepan 30.7 failure is a great disappointment on many fronts... for magnepan, for harry pearson's legacy (Magnepan is THE archetype for an "absolute sound" speaker), and for the industry as a whole...


There is no doubt that some guys will prefer the new $40k wilson watt puppy and $35K magico s5 to magnepan. Just like togas were popular back in the day to all other clothing, and blue jeans are popular today, the popular taste in speakers today are box speakers. And magico and wilson make fine specimens of those products. Guys who like box speakers are not going wrong with magico or wilson.

But regardless of real-estate requirements of the 30.7, when the new watt puppy sells more in a week than the entire magnepan 30.7 run, and yet magnepan 30.7 competes with $200K+ speakers, and is the epitome of the "absolute sound", it just shows where the industry is...

It just illustrates that high-end audio is a luxury industry driven by herd effects.

Sadly, too much of this is true, although I don't think of the 30.7 as a failure -- they didn't even know if they were going to break even on it and I gather that they made money, and that the "halo effect" increased sales. The sense I got from them is that they were pleased by the results.

But yes, the high end industry isn't what it was. I understand that dealers are keeping alive (those that are) by doing custom work and selling to the rich, since the middle class is no longer buying. That being the case, I can't blame manufacturers for pricing some of their gear into the stratosphere. Sadly, though, many dealers are more interested in selling to those rich customers than in selling good sound, and this hurts a company like Magnepan that sells on the basis of its sound -- no one would ever buy a pair of barn doors without it! The dealers know that some of the expensive products they sell have mediocre sonics but the customer goes away happy and the dealer makes his profit and that's it, so they don't feel they need to demonstrate the Maggies. The customer is never the wiser.

I'm hoping that the new Maggie for Condos helps Magnepan capture some of that market -- it's a lot easier to sell someone on a 12" wide panel than a monolith out of 2001! And while I had some input to its development so can't claim to be unbiased, I was blown away when I heard it -- this is *better* than the 30.7, and that was already one of the most amazing speakers I've ever heard. Magnepan is going to have to break out of their current mold, because selling large speakers with superior sonics to middle class customers just won't support an operation of their size anymore. And if they have to downsize, they'll lose economy of scale, which means that prices will have to go up. But I sense that they're very reluctant to break out of their traditional role as a high-bang-for-the-buck value manufacturer, even if some luxury products would allow them to continue to sell their high value line at a price most can afford.

 

[josh358]

Real estate is a major issue...not everyone has the room for dipoles, and imo, unless you do there are better alternatives, which include "box speakers"... or pretty much anything else.

And if you do have room for them, they will dominate the room so not everyone will be willing to sacrifice the space required.

I will say Alsyvox were some of the best speakers I've ever heard, but the design will be a major limitation on sales, same with Maggies.

Curious, how would you say the sound of Alsyvox stands up? I'd love to hear them, but have never had the chance.

BTW, if you haven't seen them, the "Maggie for Condos" that I mentioned is Magnepan's answer to the space issue. Panels only 12" wide and compact dynamic dipole woofers that have been designed so that they can be hidden and, more importantly, to blend seamlessly with the planar panels, something that's traditionally been elusive in hybrids. And man, they will blow your socks off! Better than anything Magnepan has ever done, with all the virtues of the 30.7 (they're basically a 30.7 from the midbass coupler up) and bass that combines the virtues of planar dipoles with the punch of dynamic drivers. (I'll add again that I'm not a neutral source here, but pretty much everyone who's heard them has had the same reaction.)

 

[caesar]

The Magnepan 30.7 is a failure? According to what definition? On the basis of what evidence?

Unless you are privy to Magnepan’s internal business model and sales projections for this particular model of speaker I think your statement is unsubstantiated and irresponsible.

Assuming you’re correct that Wilson Audio sells more Watt Puppies in a week than Magnepan has sold 30.7s in total (How do you know this anyway? Are these facts or just made up falsehoods?) it tells me nothing at all, other than possibly suggesting that small speakers are more popular than large screen speakers.

Hi Ron,



Good questions . I do have some data points ...and we can also make some solid assumptions to connect the dots...





First, when magnepan were doing the previous tour for the 30.7 model a year or two ago , I know they sold 50 or less!!!!! How do I know? I asked them.... maybe a few more by now, but I doubt it’s been a whole lot more...



Second, it’s public information that magnepan 30.7 is not a successful product. (I believe there is a thread here somewhere on the “30.7 for condos “ tour in the recent weeks.) The reason they have this new Condos product is the 30.7 is not selling. Their marketeer said as such at the presentation for the Condo model.



So, heck yeah it’s a commercial failure. “Hurts“ to say that , but it is the reality...I was hoping for 300 to make it a success ; and 500 to make it a blowout success, but...



The most disappointing thing is that the 30.7 is a speaker that competes sound wise with big $200k+ speakers from Wilson , focals, rockports, magicos, top Gamuts, top vivid, YGs, etc. , and makes many of them sound fake. But 50 or less!!!!



Obviously, real estate is an issue. It gets brought up all the time with that speaker. Yet throw some watt puppies or magico S in a shared space and they take over the room as well.



The box models are huge also! Look like Coffins with shined up metal or fancy car paint , even in a 15 x 18 foot room. They are not small monitors!



The audiophile’s 90 year old Mom he is living with, or his wife, will not be happy either with those ugly, hulking , boxy things taking over a room. Pull them in a few feet from each wall and the ladies get even less happy ...



And it’s fantasy to assume there are no arguments with the partners regarding speakers/ music playing in a shared space ...



The wife is probably thinking: that stupid shmuck I’m living himself just bought himself some butt ugly speakers that are taking over my room. Instead , I could have gotten a new, high end Valcucine kitchen, coolest B&B Italia furniture for my home, fancy Gucci shoes and clothes, Hermès purse, first class vacations, and van arpels and cleef jewelry instead of those big speakers and large , ugly amps and rack of gear in my living room! ...



buy the 30.7 and use the difference in cash for the wife’s gift? Goodness no...



Furthermore, anyone in a non- dedicated , non- treated room will have compromised sound - no matter how much they play around with speaker placement. Even very old moms and wives do not want ugly bass traps and diffusers taking over the living space either...



Yet one would think that audiophiles with real PASSION would find either a separate room for them or find a way to make the 30.7 work.



As Gregadd says above, mark the lines and move the speakers out of the way if the wife or the audiophile’s old mom is bitching. When she leaves the house or when it’s the guy’s turn to use the room, put them back in!



Not even 50 crazy , PASSIONATE guys have taken this approach!!!!



But how many guys stuff a HUGE Wilson or magico or focal or YG in a small room!?!! I have seen that A LOT . Mom or wifey are not happy in that case either. And the audiophile gets non-ideal sound. It could be decent sound , if they are lucky . But usually it’s a mediocre sound - after all that money spent, after all the arguments and “negotiations”.



But heck, who needs great sound; there’s always pride of ownership with that sexy , coveted , luxury brand...



Interestingly, “Great Yoda” Jonathan Valin, “Fearless” Michael Fremer, and Robinson, that DSD preaching reviewer from the internet , all have very small , even tiny rooms for the all out assault speakers they review.



Some things like depth and spaciousness can’t be properly manifested in a room compromised by small/ tiny size. And one can get bad smearing that even the most talented acousticians can’t fix without deadening the room... but that luxury pride of ownership of that large speaker ....



Sad state , really, as 50 or less guys on the entire planet, some living with their old , deaf mother , who pay reduced housing costs and got the run of the house, acquired the 30.7!!!!! ...



And , of course many of the guys with the larger, 20.7 magnepans that already have a larger room didn’t upgrade either... had I not had the data , I would have assumed that at least 100 guys with a Maggie 20.X , who already have a large room, would have upgraded to a 30.7. The hobby is in an even more accelerated demise than I thought...



As for Wilson , the new watt puppy is fresh out. We can make some assumptions...



All the dealers world wide need their demos, and that’s a good number to start a manufacturing run . One dealer I know sold 4-6, or so, in the a few months. He’s talented salesman, so probably an exception... an average dealer may move 2-3 over that time ....



The expected, rave reviews are starting to come in (authority influence technique). ...stock market at all time high... inflation is low, not threatening higher interest rates...guys will find an excuse to treat themselves (even if they put them in a mediocre room)...



A number of the newly excited owners will jump online and chat them up ( social proof influence technique in action )...



Purchasing prospects will take note...The reality for the purchasing prospect is that so many audio products exist, people don’t have the energy, patience, time, knowledge, and skill to winnow down their choices . They feel paralyzed. So in this state of confusion they will look to authority figures (reviewers) and a bunch of exuberant, Wilson owners who are in the honeymoon phase on forums (social proof). Maybe prospect heard and liked other speakers, but why take a risk when the Wilson is pretty good also, and so many people behind it...



Because of all the confusion and choices, the purchasing prospect will feel liberated purchasing the watt puppy.... and stuff them in an non- ideal room... Nothing wrong with it , as it is a hobby, and in a free society , people can spend their money any way they like...



So Wilson will sell a bunch more...and continue to dominate....god bless them...





So anyway, yeah, real estate issues with all types of speakers , for the vast majority of listeners in our hobby... yet...



50 or less 30.7s!!! Our hobby has had a major shift: Desire for Luxury brands and Bandwagon effects beat passion for high quality audio , unfortunately.

 

[MJB]

I listened to the 30.7s in one of the marketing stops. I can share that it was not a good experience. The speakers didn’t sound right. And, the physical quality (materials and workmanship) of the speakers was not at the level of a $30K transducer.

Lastly, I have owned magnepan speakers and have traditionally liked them. So, I’m not bashing the company. Simply, the 30.7s performance and quality are not at the level I expected. And, apparently, to many others as well since they have sold only 50 or so pairs.

 

[josh358]

I listened to the 30.7s in one of the marketing stops. I can share that it was not a good experience. The speakers didn’t sound right. And, the physical quality (materials and workmanship) of the speakers was not at the level of a $30K transducer.

Lastly, I have owned magnepan speakers and have traditionally liked them. So, I’m not bashing the company. Simply, the 30.7s performance and quality are not at the level I expected. And, apparently, to many others as well since they have sold only 50 or so pairs.

The acoustics at many of the demos were terrible. No different really than an audio show where you hear everybody's flagship speakers sound like crap. I was fortunate to hear the 30.7's in a good room and they were amazing. As Jonathan Valin said, you'd have to spend more than $100,000 to equal them. (The 30.7 for condos is even better, and it isn't the size of a barn door.)

Regarding the quality of the materials, Magnepan is still true to its audiophile roots. They just aren't a good fit with the luxury market, in which components are chosen for reasons other than sound quality. I personally wish they would enter that market, not because I care for it personally, but because its become a crucial source of income for high end manufacturers thanks to the fading of middle class demand. But it is true that companies like Wilson and Magico have a lot of experience with that market and are very good at knowing what the luxury market wants. Fancy-sounding, exotic components, fine furniture finishes -- all the stuff that Magnepan rejects because it doesn't help the sound.

And the 30.7 -- where can a prospective customer even hear it? Nowhere. Same with the 20.7. Worse, these days, the larger dealers just point their rich customers to the mediocre sounding boxes. They won't even play the Maggies, unless the customer asks. And Maggies don't sell unless someone hears them, and realizes how much better they sound than boxes. Why should the dealers care? They get a huge markup on an inflated price for little trouble, and the customer goes away happy, not aware that he could have done better. The dealer who sells Maggies effectively is someone who cares enough about the sound to demonstrate it.

 

[caesar]

I listened to the 30.7s in one of the marketing stops. I can share that it was not a good experience. The speakers didn’t sound right. And, the physical quality (materials and workmanship) of the speakers was not at the level of a $30K transducer.

Lastly, I have owned magnepan speakers and have traditionally liked them. So, I’m not bashing the company. Simply, the 30.7s performance and quality are not at the level I expected. And, apparently, to many others as well since they have sold only 50 or so pairs.

Hi MJB,
You make an excellent point regarding the quality of demos. Josh has put down some excellent thoughts in the post above. The only thing I can add is that according to their marketing guy, there were 3 or 4 out of 15 or 20+ demo stops he made that were truly remarkable and the magic of realism happened. I was fortunate to attend one of them.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-money-on-a-magnepan.24977/page-3#post-521468

 

[Gregadd]

I think the WATT Puppy is now the Sasha?

 

[microstrip]

(...) as it is a hobby, and in a free society , people can spend their money any way they like...

So Wilson will sell a bunch more...and continue to dominate....god bless them... (...)

The Magnepan Tympani IV's , Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy V and Soundlab's A4's coexisted in my condo in the middle 90's. IMHO the Wilson Audio V's were the most satisfying of the lot and stayed for long years, the Tympani's stayed for a few weeks.

Although I have not listened to the 30.7, all the ribbon tweeter Maggies up to the 20.7 I have listened had a critical listening spot, abruptly changing balance when we moved from the central place and needed to be played loud - two aspects that ruled them out for me. I know they represent great value for money, but they were not my cup of tea. In this hobby we pick what we like.

Our hobby has had a major shift: Desire for Luxury brands and Bandwagon effects beat passion for high quality audio , unfortunately.

You are comparing acceptance of an extremely large and invasive speaker with an high quality speaker with high domestic acceptance - IMHO such comaprions can't support your dramatic conclusion. I would say that fortunately passion for high quality audio can now coexist with a more domestic and visually acceptable style. We should feel very happy for it.

 

[josh358]

Hi MJB,
You make an excellent point regarding the quality of demos. Josh has put down some excellent thoughts in the post above. The only thing I can add is that according to their marketing guy, there were 3 or 4 out of 15 or 20+ demo stops he made that were truly remarkable and the magic of realism happened. I was fortunate to attend one of them.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/thre...-money-on-a-magnepan.24977/page-3#post-521468

That's a very perceptive review.

I question whether the tour made sense, because too many people heard them in bad acoustics or being driven by the wrong equipment, and concluded that that was the fault of the speakers. Wendell Diller is thinking of taking the new speaker on tour, and if he does that, I hope he'll stick to the rooms that had good acoustics so that it doesn't get a bad rep. (While I'm not unbiased -- I had a bit of an unpaid role in its development -- what I heard of the new speaker would make your jaw drop. I have *never* heard sound so good.)

 

[josh358]

The Magnepan Tympani IV's , Wilson Audio Watt/Puppy V and Soundlab's A4's coexisted in my condo in the middle 90's. IMHO the Wilson Audio V's were the most satisfying of the lot and stayed for long years, the Tympani's stayed for a few weeks.

Although I have not listened to the 30.7, all the ribbon tweeter Maggies up to the 20.7 I have listened had a critical listening spot, abruptly changing balance when we moved from the central place and needed to be played loud - two aspects that ruled them out for me. I know they represent great value for money, but they were not my cup of tea. In this hobby we pick what we like.



You are comparing acceptance of an extremely large and invasive speaker with an high quality speaker with high domestic acceptance - IMHO such comaprions can't support your dramatic conclusion. I would say that fortunately passion for high quality audio can now coexist with a more domestic and visually acceptable style. We should feel very happy for it.

Multiple driver line sources will always change balance as you move from the sweet spot because the crossover lobes are lateral, whereas with a box, they're vertical so the changes occur as you stand up. But that does make a difference when you're listening off axis since you're usually seated in the central position.

Regarding the sound, the strength of the Maggies is realism with acoustical instruments. I personally like the Wilsons, but their strengths are different -- an orchestra will never sound like an orchestra, but as someone put it once, they have a nice "hi fi" sound. And they are loud and clean. So as you say, different strokes for different folks.

By the way, Magnepan is very aware of the size problem, which is why they developed the "30.7 for Condos" prototype, which has a panel only 12" wide and compact dynamic dipole woofers that are designed to be hidden. Whether the make it will depend on the reaction of customers, dealers, and the press, but so far the reaction has been beyond enthusiastic. One of the things that those who hear them are saying is that they now have dynamic punch in the bass, without sacrificing the realism of planar bass. The new form factor should make them more commercially competitive with the Sasha and other good speakers that aren't the size of barn doors! At least that's what they hope.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Regarding the sound, the strength of the Maggies is realism with acoustical instruments. I personally like the Wilsons, but their strengths are different -- an orchestra will never sound like an orchestra, but as someone put it once, they have a nice "hi fi" sound. And they are loud and clean. So as you say, different strokes for different folks. (...)

Different strokes for different folks, but IMHO you are transmitting the wrong idea about Wilsons. As you say we do not want to have a physical copy of the sound wave, but properly amplifiied Wilson's recreate pretty well orchestral and instrumental music. The way they manage to recreate the layers and tonal intensity of a full orchestra, with a proper balance of detail, focusing and diffusion are one of their strong points. BTW, this is my onw opinion, not a quote of someone who put it once ...

 

[morricab]

Real estate is a major issue...not everyone has the room for dipoles, and imo, unless you do there are better alternatives, which include "box speakers"... or pretty much anything else.

And if you do have room for them, they will dominate the room so not everyone will be willing to sacrifice the space required.

I will say Alsyvox were some of the best speakers I've ever heard, but the design will be a major limitation on sales, same with Maggies.

I used dipoles very successfully for 15 years in a 20 square meter room. As long as you can get them about 1 meter from the wall behind them they will work well...even close to a side wall is not a problem due to their figure 8 radiation pattern.