VAC 452 iQ review in Stereophile

[bonzo75]

I have not denigrated Mike's system...I am skeptical that it can sound as good as you (and some others) claim but that is not the same as denigration...

Yes then you are denigrating the listening opinion of all his visitors from your armchair. Gurus can do that, for sure.

 

[morricab]

I am basing it on the fact that everytime MF reviews tube electronics he keeps bringing out old chestnuts regarding the differences between SS and tubes that tell me he hears the difference but not which one is closer to what he hears live. That doesn't seem to be in his vocabulary.

Why would what I said imply that he hasn't been to the concerts he claims? I said that he doesn't seem to be able to translate the experience.

Obviously i haven't attended a concert with him and even if he mis-identified an instrument...so what? This is a very crude analysis and only the most basic level of listening. Being able to tell when a system is reproducing the timbre, detail and dynamics (micro and macro) close to what one hears live is subtle and not many audiophiles I know even understand what I am talking about. I think Michael is still stuck in the compare and contrast without a real anchor...maybe I am wrong but this is how it comes across in his reviews.

He is very good at describing WHAT he hears but not nearly as good as he should be with how is that relevant to what we hear with the real thing. That is my analysis of his reviews...not anything to do with sitting with him or talking directly with him etc. If you disagree with my analysis please state why. I can go deeper with specific examples from his reviews but suffice to say that would be a much longer post.

I would like to make an amendment. I reread the Lamm ML3 review and there he does indicate that the ML3 is in many ways more realistic to what he had recently heard at a concert compared to his darTZeels.

"While the ML3 produced the rich harmonic palette expected from tubes, the naturalness of its portrayal of instrumental attacks put it as close to what I heard in the St. Regis ballroom as I've heard from any amplifier."

So, perhaps I was a bit too harsh in his desire to compare to the real thing, EXCEPT...he stayed with darTZeel...maybe he listens to mostly electronic music and amplified rock??

 

[bonzo75]

I would like to make an amendment. I reread the Lamm ML3 review and there he does indicate that the ML3 is in many ways more realistic to what he had recently heard at a concert compared to his darTZeels.

"While the ML3 produced the rich harmonic palette expected from tubes, the naturalness of its portrayal of instrumental attacks put it as close to what I heard in the St. Regis ballroom as I've heard from any amplifier."

So, perhaps I was a bit too harsh in his desire to compare to the real thing, EXCEPT...he stayed with darTZeel...maybe he listens to mostly electronic music and amplified rock??

So lamm, Ypsilon phono, and Ypsilon hybrids? And he tried lamm with Wilson? If so not surprised he preferred Dartzeel, same as Mike did with EA

 

[microstrip]

I would like to make an amendment. I reread the Lamm ML3 review and there he does indicate that the ML3 is in many ways more realistic to what he had recently heard at a concert compared to his darTZeels.

"While the ML3 produced the rich harmonic palette expected from tubes, the naturalness of its portrayal of instrumental attacks put it as close to what I heard in the St. Regis ballroom as I've heard from any amplifier."

So, perhaps I was a bit too harsh in his desire to compare to the real thing, EXCEPT...he stayed with darTZeel...maybe he listens to mostly electronic music and amplified rock??

The danger of just quoting a single sentence from a review - fortunately people can read the full review at https://www.stereophile.com/content/lamm-industries-ml3-signature-monoblock-power-amplifier. No, he does not listen mostly electronic music and amplified rock.

M. Fremer also explains in what aspects the Lamm departures from real. Although I like the Lamm ML3 a lot, IMHO the VTL Siegfried II sounds more real than the Lamm ML3. It is why I have been trying to sell the ML3 at an high discount - unfortunately it seems many people think as me, no one committed to it!

 

[andromedaaudio]

I always thought/ think quit high of m fremer , but that complaining about loss of control in the bass region with tube amps puts me of a bit

Put a convergent JL 3 /Jl 2 on those wilsons and open the throttle and i m sure he ll never mention that again

 

[TrackingAngle]

I am enjoying reading this thread, believe it or not. First of all, people reading things into what I wrote that are not there are amusing. No, I did not name the darTzeel 468 amps but it was not some sort of nefarious plot! Most readers know they are my reference and it's mentioned in the associated equipment. Hervé is a clever engineer and he explains in his comment why the power measurement was what it was. Of course I'm sure people here know that Stereophile reviewers do not see the measurements before we write our reviews. I found interesting the comments about designers "cooking the books" and distortion measurements. There's art and science here. If you go 100% science guess what happens? You end up with a product that measures best and sounds a-musical. Please consider how recordings are made. For a time tube preamp-based microphones were out of favor because of noise and distortion figures. Try buying a vintage Neumann U-47 today. Very costly. What happened? Engineers heard the lifeless sonics digital recordings produced and needed something to "warm up" the sound with added noise and distortion! Surely we don't want high distortion non-linear products in our system, right? Yet vinyl playback to my ears sounds far more like live music than does even the best digital today. For whatever reasons. And no doubt cartridges and phono preamps add to a system non-linearity and higher distortion. So, choose what pleases your ears or what looks better in charts and graphs. For me it's an easy choice...the young P.S. Audio designer Darren Myer produced P.S.'s Stellar phono preamp using measurements and listening. He was willing to back off the measurements somewhat to achieve a certain sound and people love it. Not that doesn't measure well because it does, but it could have measured 'better' and not sounded as good....I think both Hervé and Kevin Hayes have designed great amplifiers. One's SS and one's tubed yet they don't sound radically different. That's why visitors who are "tube guys" hear the darTzeels and say "That's a solid state amp I could live with", and vice-versa for the VAC amps that are still here and probably will be until we allow people in our home....(virus related)....

 

[TrackingAngle]

The danger of just quoting a single sentence from a review - fortunately people can read the full review at https://www.stereophile.com/content/lamm-industries-ml3-signature-monoblock-power-amplifier. No, he does not listen mostly electronic music and amplified rock.

M. Fremer also explains in what aspects the Lamm departures from real. Although I like the Lamm ML3 a lot, IMHO the VTL Siegfried II sounds more real than the Lamm ML3. It is why I have been trying to sell the ML3 at an high discount - unfortunately it seems many people think as me, no one committed to it!

I listen to a great deal of classical music and jazz!

 

[Carlos269]

I am enjoying reading this thread, believe it or not. First of all, people reading things into what I wrote that are not there are amusing. No, I did not name the darTzeel 468 amps but it was not some sort of nefarious plot! Most readers know they are my reference and it's mentioned in the associated equipment. Hervé is a clever engineer and he explains in his comment why the power measurement was what it was. Of course I'm sure people here know that Stereophile reviewers do not see the measurements before we write our reviews. I found interesting the comments about designers "cooking the books" and distortion measurements. There's art and science here. If you go 100% science guess what happens? You end up with a product that measures best and sounds a-musical. Please consider how recordings are made. For a time tube preamp-based microphones were out of favor because of noise and distortion figures. Try buying a vintage Neumann U-47 today. Very costly. What happened? Engineers heard the lifeless sonics digital recordings produced and needed something to "warm up" the sound with added noise and distortion! Surely we don't want high distortion non-linear products in our system, right? Yet vinyl playback to my ears sounds far more like live music than does even the best digital today. For whatever reasons. And no doubt cartridges and phono preamps add to a system non-linearity and higher distortion. So, choose what pleases your ears or what looks better in charts and graphs. For me it's an easy choice...the young P.S. Audio designer Darren Myer produced P.S.'s Stellar phono preamp using measurements and listening. He was willing to back off the measurements somewhat to achieve a certain sound and people love it. Not that doesn't measure well because it does, but it could have measured 'better' and not sounded as good....I think both Hervé and Kevin Hayes have designed great amplifiers. One's SS and one's tubed yet they don't sound radically different. That's why visitors who are "tube guys" hear the darTzeels and say "That's a solid state amp I could live with", and vice-versa for the VAC amps that are still here and probably will be until we allow people in our home....(virus related)....

You just repeated what I said. Let’s see how a reviewer is treated for stating what most here found just too hard to swallow.

 

[spiritofmusic]

I am enjoying reading this thread, believe it or not. First of all, people reading things into what I wrote that are not there are amusing. No, I did not name the darTzeel 468 amps but it was not some sort of nefarious plot! Most readers know they are my reference and it's mentioned in the associated equipment. Hervé is a clever engineer and he explains in his comment why the power measurement was what it was. Of course I'm sure people here know that Stereophile reviewers do not see the measurements before we write our reviews. I found interesting the comments about designers "cooking the books" and distortion measurements. There's art and science here. If you go 100% science guess what happens? You end up with a product that measures best and sounds a-musical. Please consider how recordings are made. For a time tube preamp-based microphones were out of favor because of noise and distortion figures. Try buying a vintage Neumann U-47 today. Very costly. What happened? Engineers heard the lifeless sonics digital recordings produced and needed something to "warm up" the sound with added noise and distortion! Surely we don't want high distortion non-linear products in our system, right? Yet vinyl playback to my ears sounds far more like live music than does even the best digital today. For whatever reasons. And no doubt cartridges and phono preamps add to a system non-linearity and higher distortion. So, choose what pleases your ears or what looks better in charts and graphs. For me it's an easy choice...the young P.S. Audio designer Darren Myer produced P.S.'s Stellar phono preamp using measurements and listening. He was willing to back off the measurements somewhat to achieve a certain sound and people love it. Not that doesn't measure well because it does, but it could have measured 'better' and not sounded as good....I think both Hervé and Kevin Hayes have designed great amplifiers. One's SS and one's tubed yet they don't sound radically different. That's why visitors who are "tube guys" hear the darTzeels and say "That's a solid state amp I could live with", and vice-versa for the VAC amps that are still here and probably will be until we allow people in our home....(virus related)....

Mike, I've ended up w likely very neutral analog source (revealing and even handed LT arm and LPSd Straingauge cart), and added a bit of sizzle and sauce w my triodes and 101dB eff quasi-full range driver spkrs. I know full well I can't go the dark side 105dB volumes on iron grip D'Agostinos on YG towers. But I can absolutely get in the zone w triodes into spkrs well suited to my very large room, and w zero fatigue and max immersion.

I very nearly went down the more ruler flat linear sound w the ATC 100 actives pro studio monitors, or the Rockport Antares/Boulder amps I was quite close to getting.

I think I dodged the bullets of "great on paper, less so on the ears" w those two systems.

 

[microstrip]

You just repeated what I said. Let’s see how a reviewer is treated for stating what most here found just too hard to swallow.

I often write it - in the high end we pay a lot for extremely controlled forms of distortion and noise that create an enjoyable system that sounds realistic to some of us. It is in this sense that I often write that audio designers are part of the art, as well as the recording engineers.

 

[caesar]

Yes, due to his writing skills he has influenced a generation of audiophiles...but to what end? HP was the big influencer of a generation before but seemed genuinely interested in the actual pursuit but I think JV is interested in his influence and what goodies he can collect. I got really turned off by JV when the cable selling scandal broke and also his endless cheerleading brands that, to my ears, were not sure what he claimed.
Prior to that, I too was impressed with the clarity and style of his writing. But I stopped reading him once I felt he was not putting honest opinions out.

Sure, I am not aware of Valin’s work on cables…

What’s he into these days? Ansuz ? Synergistic? Some other magical cable that costs even more than all the real estate on his entire block for 1 meter? I got several systems in play, and I’m not that into cables. Not that I seek them out , but every cable guy I met doing their A/B presentations makes my skin crawl and gives me the heebie jeebies. But I am sure there are many good guys in that field, including some very knowledgeable and helpful guys on this site….

Anyways, as to why Valin is significant in the context of economics of our industry/ hobby … Economics is a hidden order. Like reality itself, it exists whether people choose to realize that or not. Although there are many intelligent and successful people in this expensive, luxury hobby, people such as attorneys, physicians, business people, engineers, scientists, etc., the understanding of economic concepts that drives this industry is close to nil… Surprisingly, even industry leaders, who are intelligent - at least on paper - don’t get the economics that makes this industry really work. Or likely, don’t want to. After all, it’s easier to accept the status quo and confirm one’s biases than to challenge oneself to think and see the situation from a different perspective…

So there goes the herd with Wilson, dCS, etc.… (the herd effect where popular sounding popular brands become even more popular as people gain knowledge of them from experienced influencers, friends, dealers, online boards, etc…. We see this in luxury and entertainment industries all the time…)

Very few in this hobby care to stretch their mind to understand social networks that shape and reinforce the tastes/ sonic signatures that Intellectualized Sound that dominates… and the industry IS in MAJOR decline…

Anyways, incentives are the keystone of life. Understanding them and illuminating them is key to understanding the Actions of the reviewers and other players in our hobby / industry. And the incentives are perverse for the reviewers to lie exaggerate, and mislead the fans, so the manufacturers will keep feeding them with more expensive toys …

With all that background, I have no illusions that Valin likes all of his toys. And I’m sure he’s Inebriated (Bombed! Smashed!) with the Power he can wield (creating Magico and Raidho from virtually nothing from a marketing perspective as mentioned above AND Equally by determining the fate of the brands he chooses to ignore).

But because of the breadth of his work and comparisons, the Recent Valin is NOT that repugnant mother fukker, like the guys who don’t compare experiences but tell the reader what is best for the reviewer’s taste and best for the reviewer to say - so the reviewer can get even more expensive toys from manufacturers, to feed the reviewer’s dopamine rush and ego trip…

and in this hobby/ industry with very small sales volumes, manufactures are [moderator deletion due to gross language] desperate to stay alive…

Instead of badges, show organizers need to provide these guys with cheerleader costumes with logos of the brands they represent…. Amazing that so many guys can have such contempt for their readers , in the wide open..

Some readers are dreamers, audio imaginalists, and audio masturbationalists. Any story will be good enough for them, and they will just accept it - "just imagine a singer right in front you".

But the ones that pay these guys’ bills and allow manufacturers to make a living are looking for useful information that will make their life better. Because of Valin’s breadth of experience and communication style, he is able to communicate to fans of different experiences, assumptions, perspectives, and backgrounds. To his credit, “Great Yoda” Valin has been able to step out of the echo chamber and is thus able to expose the reader to different technologies, share his experiences, and help narrow the buying choices, and guide the reader to Their Own bliss.

 

[morricab]

I often write it - in the high end we pay a lot for extremely controlled forms of distortion and noise that create an enjoyable system that sounds realistic to some of us. It is in this sense that I often write that audio designers are part of the art, as well as the recording engineers.

Extremely controlled forms of distortion and noise...sounds like an esoteric definition of music itself...not just what your stereo does! I don’t buy this argument that listening to reproduced music is essentially a different art form from live and therefore any attempt at High Fidelity is pointless.

 

[morricab]

Sure, I am not aware of Valin’s work on cables…

What’s he into these days? Ansuz ? Synergistic? Some other magical cable that costs even more than all the real estate on his entire block for 1 meter? I got several systems in play, and I’m not that into cables. Not that I seek them out , but every cable guy I met doing their A/B presentations makes my skin crawl and gives me the heebie jeebies. But I am sure there are many good guys in that field, including some very knowledgeable and helpful guys on this site….

Anyways, as to why Valin is significant in the context of economics of our industry/ hobby … Economics is a hidden order. Like reality itself, it exists whether people choose to realize that or not. Although there are many intelligent and successful people in this expensive, luxury hobby, people such as attorneys, physicians, business people, engineers, scientists, etc., the understanding of economic concepts that drives this industry is close to nil… Surprisingly, even industry leaders, who are intelligent - at least on paper - don’t get the economics that makes this industry really work. Or likely, don’t want to. After all, it’s easier to accept the status quo and confirm one’s biases than to challenge oneself to think and see the situation from a different perspective…

So there goes the herd with Wilson, dCS, etc.… (the herd effect where popular sounding popular brands become even more popular as people gain knowledge of them from experienced influencers, friends, dealers, online boards, etc…. We see this in luxury and entertainment industries all the time…)

Very few in this hobby care to stretch their mind to understand social networks that shape and reinforce the tastes/ sonic signatures that Intellectualized Sound that dominates… and the industry IS in MAJOR decline…

Anyways, incentives are the keystone of life. Understanding them and illuminating them is key to understanding the Actions of the reviewers and other players in our hobby / industry. And the incentives are perverse for the reviewers to lie exaggerate, and mislead the fans, so the manufacturers will keep feeding them with more expensive toys …

With all that background, I have no illusions that Valin likes all of his toys. And I’m sure he’s Inebriated (Bombed! Smashed!) with the Power he can wield (creating Magico and Raidho from virtually nothing from a marketing perspective as mentioned above AND Equally by determining the fate of the brands he chooses to ignore).

But because of the breadth of his work and comparisons, the Recent Valin is NOT that repugnant mother fukker, like the guys who don’t compare experiences but tell the reader what is best for the reviewer’s taste and best for the reviewer to say - so the reviewer can get even more expensive toys from manufacturers, to feed the reviewer’s dopamine rush and ego trip…

and in this hobby/ industry with very small sales volumes, manufactures are [moderator deletion due to gross language] desperate to stay alive…

Instead of badges, show organizers need to provide these guys with cheerleader costumes with logos of the brands they represent…. Amazing that so many guys can have such contempt for their readers , in the wide open..

Some readers are dreamers, audio imaginalists, and audio masturbationalists. Any story will be good enough for them, and they will just accept it - "just imagine a singer right in front you".

But the ones that pay these guys’ bills and allow manufacturers to make a living are looking for useful information that will make their life better. Because of Valin’s breadth of experience and communication style, he is able to communicate to fans of different experiences, assumptions, perspectives, and backgrounds. To his credit, “Great Yoda” Valin has been able to step out of the echo chamber and is thus able to expose the reader to different technologies, share his experiences, and help narrow the buying choices, and guide the reader to Their Own bliss.

You don’t know about the cable scandal ? Well ok, JV was busted hawking VERY expensive cables (maybe Nordost but I don’t remember exact details anymore) that were provided to him on long term loan from the mfg. This tarnished him for awhile but apparently people forget. I thought it was pretty scummy as I was a reviewer at that time as well.

 

[JackD201]

Extremely controlled forms of distortion and noise...sounds like an esoteric definition of music itself...not just what your stereo does! I don’t buy this argument that listening to reproduced music is essentially a different art form from live and therefore any attempt at High Fidelity is pointless.

Come on Brad, you've got recording experience too. Let's give talents, producers and engineers some credit. Well listening to a recording might not be art but certainly the recordings are. <<<music collector hat on >>>

 

[JackD201]

You just repeated what I said. Let’s see how a reviewer is treated for stating what most here found just too hard to swallow.

He'll be treated fine. It wasn't what you said, it was your "ad verecundiam" line of discourse.

 

[jdza]

As someone who is totally agnostic towards both Dr Valin and Nordost this whole saga smacked of mainstream politics and turned me away from much of the so called High End.

As far as I can remember someone was selling lengths of Nordost Valhalla on Audiogon. Nordost keeps track of these sort of things and identified these as chopped up and re-terminated lengths from a longer length of cable sent to Valin for review. Valin in turn claimed that he found some pieces of cable in a box and donated them to a friend who subsequently did the deed.

Other manufacturers, specifically Charles Hansen of Ayre and Gordon Rankin of Wavelength got on the Audio asylum egg pelting wagon and seemingly for ever never let up having TAS have it.

Was he guilty or merely scatter-brained? Did Nordost act correctly by washing these rags in public? Who knows and frankly who cares? For a lot of us it tainted a precious hobby and the industry was the only loser.

 

[JackD201]

This makes sense. If Halcro is very neutral, it will oscillate between sterile and good depending on upstream components. The guy with Walker and FM originally probably had a good matching cart and that was flowing through the Halcro nicely.

The Cart was a Gen 1 Goldfinger. Not a cart associated with flow. I guess the FM was it. FM preamplification has always been very tasteful and refined to my ears. A good friend and fellow WBF'er has heard full FM systems many times. Too much of a good thing says he and Manuel knows and acknowledges that.

 

[the sound of Tao]

He'll be treated fine. It wasn't what you said, it was your "ad verecundiam" line of discourse.

I’m glad I looked that one up Jack... I was initially concerned that it was going to lead me to the Latin for a body part but I was pleasantly surprised... every day is an opportunity to learn, many thanks.

 

[JackD201]

No, no! Rated PG 13 only

 

[bonzo75]

As someone who is totally agnostic towards both Dr Valin and Nordost this whole saga smacked of mainstream politics and turned me away from much of the so called High End.

As far as I can remember someone was selling lengths of Nordost Valhalla on Audiogon. Nordost keeps track of these sort of things and identified these as chopped up and re-terminated lengths from a longer length of cable sent to Valin for review. Valin in turn claimed that he found some pieces of cable in a box and donated them to a friend who subsequently did the deed.

Other manufacturers, specifically Charles Hansen of Ayre and Gordon Rankin of Wavelength got on the Audio asylum egg pelting wagon and seemingly for ever never let up having TAS have it.

Was he guilty or merely scatter-brained? Did Nordost act correctly by washing these rags in public? Who knows and frankly who cares? For a lot of us it tainted a precious hobby and the industry was the only loser.

This is Charles Hansen's post from AA

https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=critics&n=37715