State-of-the-Art Digital

[microstrip]

Nice and congratulations! I'm surprised you're not listing it in your "signature". Does that mean 95% of the music you listen to on redbook CDs?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Well, the signature list is dynamic and too long, although I have promise myself that the next months will be dedicated to shorten it. I would say that currently 80% of the music I listen is redbook CD or Qobuz, 10% 24/94 ( also Kondo DAC compatible ) , 5% > 192 or DSD and 5% LP with a large error margin, surely!

 

[LL21]

Well, the signature list is dynamic and too long, although I have promise myself that the next months will be dedicated to shorten it. I would say that currently 80% of the music I listen is redbook CD or Qobuz, 10% 24/94 ( also Kondo DAC compatible ) , 5% > 192 or DSD and 5% LP with a large error margin, surely!

Would be interesting to hear how you feel the Vivaldi and Kondo DAC compare

 

[christoph]

Would be interesting to hear how you feel the Vivaldi and Kondo DAC compare

I'm also interested in that compare.
The Vivaldi and the Kondo are as polar as can be regarding sound signature

 

[morricab]

It seems it is what I've been saying every year, although it's alternatively been Vox Olympian and Palladian, and one year two rooms even so one could actually audition both. I honestly don't remember all the details, but I remember there was another brand of tube amplification used in one of their rooms one year, and that it made an enormous difference, in favor perhaps of a more highly resolved sound, but less involving in every other respect. I believe the combination I liked best was with KSL-Gakuoh bi-amping, and although preamp, phono stage and DAC were all Kondo KSL, I don't remember which generation. It may not yet have been the Ongaku-DAC, as only redbook CDs were played back from a transport.

Maybe Christoph or Brad (morricab) remember the respective models in more detail?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Yes, it was the Kondo/Vox Olympian room that you and I liked much more than the other setup, which had the Engstrom amplification with Palladian speaker. I am not sure about the DAC that year in the Vox room as they were also some years using the Neodio cd player instead of Kondo. What I do know is that the ultimate best I ever heard the LV/Kondo sound was actually couple of years earlier than that where it was a full Kondo setup including DAC and KSL-77 preamp with the Gakuoh 300B monos. The LV/Kondo setup is about the only system I have ever really heard that truly stops sounding like hifi and moves into the real feeling of a live event.

Interestingly, the Palladian system has never quite gotten there for me even when they had it alone with Kondo stuff...sounded amazing but not that last bit to suspend disbelief...

 

[morricab]

Right, but it doesn't surprise me if these vocal sonics from tenors don't present challenges to concert hall acoustics as well.

The two things aren't really comparable...

 

[morricab]

Thanks. I was particularly curious about the use of the Kondo KSL DAC. I have a mint one facing me and I am still considering if I should ask Emile for a SPDIF card for the Extreme to listen to it in streamer/server mode, the KSL accepts SPDIF up to 24/96 - it covers 95% of the music I listen.

Hmmm...I don't see a cd transport in your gear list...what are you driving the KSL-DAC with?

 

[LL21]

Thanks. I was particularly curious about the use of the Kondo KSL DAC...am still considering if I should ask Emile for a SPDIF card for the Extreme to listen to it in streamer/server mode, the KSL accepts SPDIF up to 24/96 - it covers 95% of the music I listen.

Hmmm...I don't see a cd transport in your gear list...what are you driving the KSL-DAC with?

It looks like he is planning on using the Taiko Extreme Server...that said, I believe Micro may still own the Metronome Kalista Transport as well.

 

[acousticsguru]

Yes, it was the Kondo/Vox Olympian room that you and I liked much more than the other setup, which had the Engstrom amplification with Palladian speaker. I am not sure about the DAC that year in the Vox room as they were also some years using the Neodio cd player instead of Kondo. What I do know is that the ultimate best I ever heard the LV/Kondo sound was actually couple of years earlier than that where it was a full Kondo setup including DAC and KSL-77 preamp with the Gakuoh 300B monos. The LV/Kondo setup is about the only system I have ever really heard that truly stops sounding like hifi and moves into the real feeling of a live event.

Interestingly, the Palladian system has never quite gotten there for me even when they had it alone with Kondo stuff...sounded amazing but not that last bit to suspend disbelief...

I agree, the Palladian sounds like a great speaker, whereas the Olympian sounds like something else. The setup with four Gakuoh 300B mono blocks, KSL DAC (not sure which generation - isn't there more than one?) and KSL-M77 preamp is the same one I meant that I liked best. I was going to say KSL-M77 because of the size of the chassis and volume knob, but I can't claim to know every model, much less knowing there are ones I've never seen (I sure wish I'd heard all the Kondo there is).

"Suspend disbelief" is one way to put it - disbelief that one hears is not live music? That's not exactly how I feel about it. I personally think it sounds like its own category, apart from live music, apart from HiFi. The emotional involvement borders on the physical, a unique experience. The record does to the listener what live music does to an audience - and yet, it doesn't sound like live music. From an analytical perspective, which becomes irrelevant once one hears what the system does, there's little focus to voices or instruments or anything within the soundstage, in which one feels as immersed as in the music itself. It's as if one were drowning in seductively perfumed bath, and happily so.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[acousticsguru]

The two things aren't really comparable...

It's nonetheless understandable, perhaps more so to classical music buffs and concertgoers (although I'm convinced I've heard aging rock singers suffer from the exact same type of strain). Once one hears an aging baritone (I'm afraid to mention names, but I could think of at least two that are still alive and kicking, but whose voices have been slowly taking on this quality) performing e.g. some Schubert or Schumann (oh, how do I love those!) Lieder cycles, it's pretty clear that while acoustics can't really improve matters, they can make matters significantly worse. My guess is that it's because human hearing is most sensitive in the exact frequency range in which a singer's voice tends to become strained no doubt as a result of the many years of overexertion.

There may be no hiding in front of a microphone, but I believe what the Lieder and Opera aficionados here are saying is that, once one's heard this metallic "quality" live, it's easier to put into perspective hearing the same in one's home system (where, if one never attended concerts, let alone experienced it in a range of concert halls - e.g. St. Gallen or Munich tend to stress this unfortunate frequency range more than Zürich, to give examples in our neighborhood - one might indeed think something's wrong with one's home system).

Thinking about it now that we're discussing it, I don't remember ever having been in a concert hall that managed to dampen that exact section of the midrange, and only that. Apparently, that would have to be quite a feat in acoustical treatment.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

P.S.
Someone mentioned female singers appear to suffer less from this type of vocal strain. At least two singers who are no longer with us immediately spring to mind, Kirsten Flagstad and Lisa Della Casa (more rarely, no doubt because she quit early) in their later records. But it's true that I could probably come up with a longer list of male singers, too.

 

[BMCG]

Hmmm...I don't see a cd transport in your gear list...what are you driving the KSL-DAC with?

For CD could readily take the Vivaldi Transport's output ....its unencrypted.

 

[acousticsguru]

I'm also interested in that compare.
The Vivaldi and the Kondo are as polar as can be regarding sound signature

I would pay to hear them in a direct comparison. My impression from what I've heard is twofold, firstly a matter of "missing the forest for the trees" (= i.e. neither DAC is perfect, but it is no secret which errs on the side of missing the forrest rather than the trees and vice versa), and secondly, that the beautiful-sounding Kondo actually has a sonic signature, one might even say a memorable one at that, whereas that of the Vivaldi becomes awfully hard to pin down in words once one has heard it in a variety of systems. I have much more experience with different dCS models than Kondo, and of the other usual suspects, I got a chance to listen to a number of Lampizator occasionally, yet e.g. MSB, Playback designs etc. only occasionally - so one would think I should be more qualified to describe the sonic signature of dCS better than people who occasionally hear it in unknown systems at trade shows, instead of a number of systems they know and lived to hear evolve over the years, compared different components in etc. & etc. And yet, I find it most difficult to describe the sonic signature of a modern dCS DAC (especially following the Version 2.0 hardware and software updates). They've continually evolved into the direction of leaving a lesser signature of their own, so that in the systems I know, it becomes increasingly clear that whatever minor flaw one might attribute to the source, one will have to find elsewhere in the system. To pour less or no chocolate sauce over said flaws, they really tend to stick out like a sore thumb. Which is why I said earlier that taking this path may lead to frustration and I wouldn't recommend it (the handful few to whom I would recommend it incidentally tend to be the ones that wouldn't heed my advice in the first place).

To put it differently, I know at least three dCS owners whom I told about our Lampizator weekends, and who couldn't be bothered to audition one, whereas I appear to be the only one in our local circle of audiophiles who finds something (admittedly different) to like about dCS, Kondo, Lampizator, MSB, Playback Designs (if only the DSD playback there) etc., but then, my priority is music and the sound of music, plus I may have an easier time as I don't have a horse in this.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[bonzo75]

"To put it differently, I know at least three dCS owners whom I told about our Lampizator weekends, and who couldn't be bothered to audition one"

I totally understand why people who assume and don't listen will end up with dCS. You are an exception times two that you listen and yet end up with dCS

 

[acousticsguru]

I don't consider Lampizator to be state of the art. More a sculpted experiment in how excellent technical specs do not necessarily result in a good sonic performance.

This bit has piqued my curiosity: anyone ever seen a measurement protocol of a Lampizator? If anyone is able to point us to one, I'd love to see it.

I remember the first Kondo DAC I heard had a frequency response of -3dB at 16-17kHz, and that when I saw the measurements, I did think it partly explained its sonic signature - I have no qualms admitting I love the sound and use measurement equipment seeing it as what it is: a means to an end.

The MSB gear I have heard has always been good and it comes with excellent technical specs, too, I suspect.

It's easy to come by measurement protocols of MSB, and yes, in the category of R2R ladder DACs, they're certainly at top in this respect. Among the sonically relevant measurements (no one ever admits one not only needs to learn to read and interpret them, but also, which are best ignored), I'm most impressed with the smoothness of their sinus wave reconstruction.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[acousticsguru]

"To put it differently, I know at least three dCS owners whom I told about our Lampizator weekends, and who couldn't be bothered to audition one"

I totally understand why people who assume and don't listen will end up with dCS. You are an exception times two that you listen and yet end up with dCS

Not only that: I have no problems admitting I could live with e.g. your favored GG1 with KR242 tubes even though I'm realizing full well what I'm hearing is far removed from what's on the source file - it sounds powerful as you've repeatedly pointed out, I'd like to add: unashamedly sporting some of the most full-breasted colorations I've ever heard in a DAC, the musical equivalent of cozying up to a hot stove in winter. I have absolutely no qualms with unrealistically beautiful digital playback: who and what are we, audiophiles and music lovers, or measurement equipment assigning marks for accuracy?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[bonzo75]

Not only that: I have no problems admitting I could live with e.g. your favored GG1 with KR242 tubes even though I'm realizing full well what I'm hearing is far removed from what's on the source file - it sounds powerful as you've repeatedly pointed out, I'd like to add: unashamedly sporting some of the most full-breasted colorations I've ever heard in a DAC, the musical equivalent of cozying up to a hot stove in winter. I have absolutely no qualms with unrealistically beautiful digital playback: who and what are we, audiophiles and music lovers, or measurement equipment assigning marks for accuracy?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Actually, I find it most transparent to recordings. But as you have read it is most fussy on set up to set up.

 

[acousticsguru]

I totally understand why people who assume and don't listen will end up with dCS. You are an exception times two that you listen and yet end up with dCS

Do you really, by the way? Two out of the three are musicians, one in a band, the other formerly professional and married to a professional musician, then again two are tech-minded, at least one an electronics engineer - you'll notice the sums are overlapping. These people's reasons not to want to listen to Lampizator are so diverse that your attempt to lump them together in a group (= of what exactly: people who want to hear what's on their records? That may be the only thing they have in common!) it makes your remark sound cynical.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[bonzo75]

It doesn't matter. Why would people assume and not be interested in auditioning? Fact that people are musicians does not mean they are interested in knowing differences between hifi components, in which case the fact that they are musicians is not relevant. It just means they have bought a dac and could care less if there was one better sounding or not compared to it.

 

[acousticsguru]

Actually, I find it most transparent to recordings. But as you have read it is most fussy on set up to set up.

dCS? Agree wholeheartedly. That may be the one mistake more tech-minded audiophiles make, by the way: they wrongly assume so-called technical perfection will fit in anywhere and do its job, like a dishwasher or any other household appliance. I've heard more systems with dCS source components whose sound I did not like than ones I did. Many more if I mentally included ones I heard at trade shows.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[bonzo75]

No I meant 242 Lampi

 

[acousticsguru]

It doesn't matter. Why would people assume and not be interested in auditioning? Fact that people are musicians does not mean they are interested in knowing differences between hifi components, in which case the fact that they are musicians is not relevant. It just means they have bought a dac and could care less if there was one better sounding or not compared to it.

They're not audiophiles, that's why. The don't give a fart about comparing gear. They figure they know the sound of their Steinway or voice of their Opera singer wife, and are pleased to have found something that reproduces that sound faithfully, warts and all. If you tell them to listen to something that'll make their own recordings sound more beautiful than reality, it's no different as if you told them it alters the sound any other way, and they lose interest in the proposition.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.