Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[spiritofmusic]

Well, Extreme TAS USBdriver will need to be doing what vinyl is so brilliant at ie allowing even the most challenging masters to both be fully resolving, and as musical/engaging as possible. My Extreme experience so far with challenging masters is that the former is achieved, but not the latter.
But I'm very open minded here, and really want the fully-tricked out Extreme to appeal to both brain AND heart.

 

[Rhapsody]

Well, Extreme TAS USBdriver will need to be doing what vinyl is so brilliant at ie allowing even the most challenging masters to both be fully resolving, and as musical/engaging as possible. My Extreme experience so far with challenging masters is that the former is achieved, but not the latter.
But I'm very open minded here, and really want the fully-tricked out Extreme to appeal to both brain AND heart.

Honestly Marc, no one is trying to convince you We are just reporting what we are experiencing. Nothing to do with meeting your judgement criteria. You probably won't have the same experience, especially going to listen to someone else's system for a few hours. For me it's more of a daily way of life type experience and not a system listening evaluation.

 

[spiritofmusic]

But judgement criteria is what this whole hobby is about, yes?
Extreme sells day one to those guys downloading HD Tracks, Channel Classics audiophile recordings 2xDSD, 4xDSD.
How does it appeal to the listener like me where 99% of my library would be 16/44, plenty of it at the challenging master/re master territory?

 

[Rhapsody]

But judgement criteria is what this whole hobby is about, yes?
Extreme sells day one to those guys downloading HD Tracks, Channel Classics audiophile recordings 2xDSD, 4xDSD.
How does it appeal to the listener like me where 99% of my library would be 16/44, plenty of it at the challenging master/re master territory?

For you and many others sure, and that's cool. Not for me, for me it's about enjoying music. I couldn't care less about formats and even dig vs vinyl vs tape. I just want to enjoy music that I love.

 

[dminches]

But judgement criteria is what this whole hobby is about, yes?
Extreme sells day one to those guys downloading HD Tracks, Channel Classics audiophile recordings 2xDSD, 4xDSD.
How does it appeal to the listener like me where 99% of my library would be 16/44, plenty of it at the challenging master/re master territory?

The "argument" for an Extreme could be: "But, if you still listen to those digital recordings don't you want to it to sound as good as it can?"

 

[Rhapsody]

But judgement criteria is what this whole hobby is about, yes?
Extreme sells day one to those guys downloading HD Tracks, Channel Classics audiophile recordings 2xDSD, 4xDSD.
How does it appeal to the listener like me where 99% of my library would be 16/44, plenty of it at the challenging master/re master territory?

Marc, I listen to Quobuz/Tidal 100% of the time where most of the recordings are 16/44.

 

[microstrip]

(...)
OTOH let's not drag vinyl into it. i've recently pushed my vinyl higher too......as i optimize each of my turntables there are musical secrets i'm hearing for the first time (as i'm sure others have heard, and more). digital is not playing in this same realm. yes, it's also different.....but it's more than just different. on Sunday i was flying high with the digital, then did vinyl for a couple of hours. it was a different level. but i was still delighted to return to the digital later. i loved all of it.

Mike,

You are the one dragging vinyl on it and then ask others not for doing the same ... Sorry but IMHO these systematic suggestions ending with a friendly condescendence ("I was still delighted to return") are too interesting to be ignored.

Are you saying if it was not for the recent (or to lift any ambiguity, let us say last year) improvements in your vinyl system the digital would be on a similar "level" to your vinyl?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bob, I guess if you don't want to address my genuine misgivings (that Extreme can be overly exposing on poorer masters that are eminently musical on LP, and even CD), that's your prerogative. Maybe you haven't listened to any album on Extreme, TAS or not, that came across as challenging, where the LP or CD was more palatable.
Well, I did, yet in the four previous years, not the case w SGM.
This isnt a case of OCD format comparisons, or dusty arguments on whether analog or digital is superior, it is on enjoying every piece of music you might want to, incl the challenging masters.
My takeaway from the first Extreme demo was very similar to some of the best analog demos I've been at, but where the cart used makes some LPs unappealing sounding. I've left those demos thinking how challenging half my albums might sound if I owned that cart.
I'm hoping my "impressed but don't quite love it yet" impression of Extreme so far gets reappraised next visit, w TAS and USB driver installed.

 

[Taiko Audio]

@spiritofmusic We do not attempt to apply any sort of smoothing or rounding in the Extreme unlike the previous models. Less forgiving to bad masters is a direct consequence of that, yet good recordings flourish. If you want a smoothing device you have to look elsewhere. With that said increasing buffer sizes to large values does trade incisiveness for a more laid back / mellow presentation.

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob, I guess if you don't want to address my genuine misgivings (that Extreme can be overly exposing on poorer masters that are eminently musical on LP, and even CD), that's your prerogative. Maybe you haven't listened to any album on Extreme, TAS or not, that came across as challenging, where the LP or CD was more palatable.
Well, I did, yet in the four previous years, not the case w SGM.
This isnt a case of OCD format comparisons, or dusty arguments on whether analog or digital is superior, it is on enjoying every piece of music you might want to, incl the challenging masters.
My takeaway from the first Extreme demo was very similar to some of the best analog demos I've been at, but where the cart used makes some LPs unappealing sounding. I've left those demos thinking how challenging half my albums might sound if I owned that cart.
I'm hoping my "impressed but don't quite love it yet" impression of Extreme so far gets reappraised next visit, w TAS and USB driver installed.

I can't react to your misgivings until you hear the current product. Let us know your thoughts once you hear TAS/Taiko usb driver. Looking forward to your impressions. As Emile said it's not going to make bad recording sound good, ALTHOUGH I listen to a LOT of older 60's and 70s not just rock, but pop songs. The recordings are far from even good, EXCEPT they sound AMAZING to me because I love the music and it's the best that I have ever heard it. Again, surely ymwv.

 

[microstrip]

But judgement criteria is what this whole hobby is about, yes?
Extreme sells day one to those guys downloading HD Tracks, Channel Classics audiophile recordings 2xDSD, 4xDSD.
How does it appeal to the listener like me where 99% of my library would be 16/44, plenty of it at the challenging master/re master territory?

No Mark, Extreme also appeals to people who listen mostly to 16/44. The same way the Vivaldi CD transport appealed to me a few years ago.

Some times I am cold blooded concerning stereo. The Extreme was a wise and thought acquisition. Although I could have spend the same amount in other parts of my system it represented the best improvement for money possible at that moment and specially, immediate reward without any effort or extra delays. I can consider changing speakers, amplifiers, turntables, cables or tweaks anytime. However I currently would not have alternatives for tape, server or DAC. Yes, I know you are now suggesting the WADAX, but funds are not unlimited...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Bob, Emile...my quandary is this...the recordings that are most "exposed" on the Extreme, are very musical on LP and even CD. Granted, I've only had limited experience, and the stuff that you'd expect to sound good was amazing on the Extreme at Barry's.
There are certain tt/cart combinations I've heard that absolutely engage on the best LPs, but feel cold and over resolving on poorer ones. I struggle to enjoy Genesis, or 70s electric Miles Davis on those setups.
However, I am very confident these recent Extreme changes will pull my opinion around a lot.
But I guess my quandary is how challenging Extreme is on those masters where the LP and CD has no shortage of musicality.

 

[oldmustang]

But judgement criteria is what this whole hobby is about, yes?
Extreme sells day one to those guys downloading HD Tracks, Channel Classics audiophile recordings 2xDSD, 4xDSD.
How does it appeal to the listener like me where 99% of my library would be 16/44, plenty of it at the challenging master/re master territory?

Well, Marc I certainly have my share of those high-res audiophile gems you mention. But my digital library and streaming easily exceeds 10:1 Redbook to high resolution. Maybe closer to 100:1.

For every superb UK Pink Island, swirl Vertigo, green Chrysalis, or pink Charisma vinyl I easily have 10:1 very ordinary vinyl of the same music, including some expensive modern vinyl reissues that just don't capture the magic of the special pressings.

The difference for me is that the Extreme really raises the bar for those less favored (resolution-wise) digital recordings more than I've found analog improvements raising the level of play for the majority of "ordinary" vinyl out there. The delta between 16/44.1 and higher resolution digital has become much closer with the Extreme/TAS/Taiko USB driver than the delta between the majority of regular vinyl and the special albums, no matter what kind of cartridge, phono amp or special tweak I apply to the analog front end.

At the end of the day, this should be as much My Fi as Hi Fi -- you should absolutely listen to what moves you the most.

Steve Z

 

[Rhapsody]

Bob, Emile...my quandary is this...the recordings that are most "exposed" on the Extreme, are very musical on LP and even CD. Granted, I've only had limited experience, and the stuff that you'd expect to sound good was amazing on the Extreme at Barry's.
There are certain tt/cart combinations I've heard that absolutely engage on the best LPs, but feel cold and over resolving on poorer ones. I struggle to enjoy Genesis, or 70s electric Miles Davis on those setups.
However, I am very confident these recent Extreme changes will pull my opinion around a lot.
But I guess my quandary is how challenging Extreme is on those masters where the LP and CD has no shortage of musicality.

Marc, it's actually pretty funny, you come back about every 10 pages or so on this thread with basically the same conversation. In between your "personal observations and concerns" everyone else is moving ahead, first with the Extreme, then with TAS Alpha, then Beta, then the new usb driver. During each one of these moving forward steps you come back with the same questions about the Extreme and it's capabilities. Have you noticed that?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Steve, I really value your take, since we come from the same place re our love of the prog hothouse period (68-75), and vinyl replay of such.
You genuinely feel Extreme boosts many (all?) recordings from that period...early/mid career Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Crimson etc?
And that Extreme is a bigger boost to these, than any number of LP pressings via a major TT upgrade?
£50k gets you Extreme and a pretty good dac...and 100m albums on Qoubuz thru TAS...and an upgrade to eg Brinkmann Balance/4Point/top cart and new phono.
Do me a favour...line up Genesis/Wind And Wuthering, or King Crimson/Red, or any Magma, Rush etc, get back to me, either on this thread, or PM, and tell me your proposition is borne out.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Marc, it's actually pretty funny, you come back about every 10 pages or so on this thread with basically the same conversation. In between your "personal observations and concerns" everyone else is moving ahead, first with the Extreme, then with TAS Alpha, then Beta, then the new usb driver. During each one of these moving forward steps you come back with the same questions about the Extreme and it's capabilities. Have you noticed that?

I see 6000 posts that are 100% exemplary re Extreme performance. I highlight a genuine misgiving about an area that I would likely fret over if I was an owner, did all my listening thru Extreme. I think the thread can survive the only less than 100% comment in all these posts.
Emile is chilled out enough to answer my misgivings directly without the hyperbolic "get on the Extreme Express, or stay standing at the station" reply.

 

[Rhapsody]

I see 6000 posts that are 100% exemplary re Extreme performance. I highlight a genuine misgiving about an area that I would likely fret over if I was an owner, did all my listening thru Extreme. I think the thread can survive the only less than 100% comment in all these posts.
Emile is chilled out enough to answer my misgivings directly without the hyperbolic "get on the Extreme Express, or stay standing at the station" reply.

Nothing wrong with expressing your misgiving, It's only that I've heard your misgivings for the last year now, every 10 pages, I know them by heart. You can continue to share your misgivings and I am just sharing my observations regarding the repeatability of you expressing your misgivings. Nothing more than that.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

You are the one dragging vinyl on it and then ask others not for doing the same ... Sorry but IMHO these systematic suggestions ending with a friendly condescendence ("I was still delighted to return") are too interesting to be ignored.

Are you saying if it was not for the recent (or to lift any ambiguity, let us say last year) improvements in your vinyl system the digital would be on a similar "level" to your vinyl?

in this particular case i did not bring vinyl into it. post #6223 was just my comments on my digital enjoyment the last 2 days.

others brought up the vinyl part.

as far as friendly condescendence, or whatever my views on vinyl might be called, i suppose i'm guilty....or rather no need to defend myself from saying my feelings. if i'm asked, i will be myself. my commitment to high levels of digital performance do show i also love me some digital too.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Nothing wrong with expressing your misgiving, It's only that I've heard your misgivings for the last year now, every 10 pages, I know them by heart. You can continue to share your misgivings and I am just sharing my observations regarding the repeatability of you expressing your misgivings. Nothing more than that.

That's a little unfair. I raised my limited misgivings back when I heard Extreme originally, tempered those misgivings publically after my second visit, and rejoined the discussion several months later, today, when it stepped onto the old chestnut analog v digital. Emile answered me directly, with calm explanation of the issues on old/poor masterings thru Extreme, and Steve Z has always given me useful perspectives. Maybe you can add something useful beyond platitudes and veiled condescension.

 

[Rhapsody]

That's a little unfair. I raised my limited misgivings back when I heard Extreme originally, tempered those misgivings publically after my second visit, and rejoined the discussion several months later, today, when it stepped onto the old chestnut analog v digital. Emile answered me directly, with calm explanation of the issues on old/poor masterings thru Extreme, and Steve Z has always given me useful perspectives. Maybe you can add something useful beyond platitudes and veiled condescension.

Nothing to add Marc....over and out.