Reality is Cruel : Cybershaft new Ultimate OCXO 10M Clocks Shootout OP20 vs OP17

[QuadDiffuser]

My OP-21A-D will be arriving in a few weeks’ time. On the subject of vibration reduction, both external (both acoustic excitation from loudspeakers, structurally borne, from platform/shelves, etc.) and internal (chassis, PCB, transformer, etc.) for Cybershaft Master Clocks, which device have owners found to be most effective? I’ve passed on the spiked product offered by Cybershaft because I don’t believe in the concept of a simple spike being a mechanical diode “draining” vibrations away from the component - that assumption (I thought) evaporated decades ago...

I’m now auditioning Stillpoints Ultra 6s (as three were available for a home audition) under my DAC to get a sense of the “house sound” of the Ultra’s isolation technology. The Ultra 2s x 3 will be considered for my OP-21A-D, should the audition of the Ultra 6 loaners go well for my DAC. Given the near-universal praise of Center Stage footers on WBF as being superior to the Stillpoints Ultras, they’re also on my audition list.

Will owners of the Cybershaft Master Clocks please share their experiences with various vibration reduction footers? Thanks!

 

[plasmod3]

Revopods!

 

[nickw]

Hi All,

New forum member here. I have been quietly reading WTBF in the background for some time, including this entire thread

I want to upgrade my system clocking and could use some help. I would like to add:
- A 10MHz reference clock (likely the SRS Pref10, or the Cybershaft OP21A)
- Plus two additional word clocks (for 44.1 + 48k signals) to feed my dCS network bridge. I could use help picking these.

The network bridge then feeds my Audio Note Dac which is non-reclocking. So the dac timing is based on the network bridge clock which feeds it.

Long term I will upgrade my Dac. Likely either a 4th generation dCS or the Audio Note discrete r2r dac. Once both options hit the market and I can make informed decision.

The reference clock will likely transition with me into the new DAC setup. I'm not sure if the the word clocks will transition with me, or be replaced.

Hasegawa-san of Cybershaft speaks highly of the very affordable Sound Warrior SWD-CL10. However for some reason the company doesn't currently have any available to purchase. Nor am I sure when they will again.

The Mutec MC-3+ comes to mind. It's rated at 0.1ppm, can take a 10MHz reference signal, and people seem to speak well of it. Not sure how good of job it does locking onto a reference signal, reclocking and redistributing it. Mutec does offer their Reference clocks, so I would speculate it was built with this task in mind. As a downside, I notice the MC-3+ has a switching power supply, which I fear may compromise its performance potential. Anyone here have experience with it?

I'm happy to consider other options. What other affordable quality word clocks can take a 10Mhz and are well performing? It's possible I might be flipping them in a year or so.

I would rather not buy a new dCS Vivaldi clock when I suspect a new model will be out soon.

Any input or advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Nick

 

[nickw]

As a second question:

With a top tier 10MHz reference clock in the system (such as the SRS Pref10 or a Cybershaft OP21), I wonder how much sonic advantage there would be between lower cost but otherwise reasonable quality word clocks (such as the Sound Warrior's or Mutec MC-3+) and a top model like the dCS Vivaldi?

Essentially, how much do top tier reference clocks level the playing field for word clocks. Assuming they are well constructed, which I fully realize is not a trivial task.

I suspect as more quality reference clocks hit the market, there will be more feedback to report.

 

[Marck1973]

Hi All,

New forum member here. I have been quietly reading WTBF in the background for some time, including this entire thread

I am wanting to upgrade my system clocking and could use some help. I would like to add:
- A 10MHz reference clock (likely the SRS Pref10, or the Cybershaft OP21A)
- Plus two additional word clocks (for 44.1 + 48 signals) to feed my dCS network bridge. I could youse some help picking these.

The network bridge then feeds my Audio Note Dac which is non-reclocking. So the dac timing is based on the network bridge clock which feeds it.

I am planning on upgrading my DAC to either the 4th generation dCS platform, or the new Audio Note discrete r2r dac (both of which are due out soon). Once both DAC's hit the market I can then make an informed decision.

In the meantime I think it makes sense to upgrade my system clocking. The reference clock (SRS Pref10) will likely transition with me into the new DAC setup. I'm not sure if the the two word clocks will transition with me, or be replaced.

I could use some help choosing the two work clocks for the 44.1 + 48k signals. Hasegawa-san of Cybershaft speaks highly of the very affordable Sound Warrior SWD-CL10, however company doesn't currently have any available to purchase (and I am not sure when they will again). The other option which comes to mind is the Mutec MC-3+. The Mutec is rated at 0.1ppm and people seem to speak well of it. However I note the MC-3+ has a switching power supply, which I fear may compromise it's performance potential. Can anyone comment on this? Are other quality options word clocks which can take a 10Mhz reference signal which are affordable and well performing? As it's possible I might be flipping them in a year or so.

I would rather not buy a new dCS Vivaldi clock with the new model due out soon.

Any input or advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Nick

I would rather not buy a new dCS Vivaldi clock with the new model due out soon.

Just wondering what you have heard / know about new models?!
Thanks

 

[nickw]

I would rather not buy a new dCS Vivaldi clock with the new model due out soon.

Just wondering what you have heard / know about new models?!
Thanks

Just rumours and speculations.

While I personally suspect the 4th generation isn't to far away, I am guessing based on previous dCS product development and release cycles.

I should not have sounded so firm with my statement. I just updated my original post reflect this.

Cheers.

 

[Marck1973]

Just rumours and speculations.

While I personally suspect the 4th generation isn't to far away, I am guessing based on dCD previous product development and release cycle.

I should not have sounded so firm with my statement. I just updated my original post reflect this.

Cheers.

Thanks for clarifying Nick

 

[drunkenspyder]

Hi All,

New forum member here. I have been quietly reading WTBF in the background for some time, including this entire thread

I want to upgrade my system clocking and could use some help. I would like to add:
- A 10MHz reference clock (likely the SRS Pref10, or the Cybershaft OP21A)
- Plus two additional word clocks (for 44.1 + 48k signals) to feed my dCS network bridge. I could use help picking these.

The network bridge then feeds my Audio Note Dac which is non-reclocking. So the dac timing is based on the network bridge clock which feeds it.

Long term I will upgrade my Dac. Likely either a 4th generation dCS or the Audio Note discrete r2r dac. Once both options hit the market and I can make informed decision.

The reference clock will likely transition with me into the new DAC setup. I'm not sure if the the word clocks will transition with me, or be replaced.

Hasegawa-san of Cybershaft speaks highly of the very affordable Sound Warrior SWD-CL10. However for some reason the company doesn't currently have any available to purchase. Nor am I sure when they will again.

The Mutec MC-3+ comes to mind. It's rated at 0.1ppm, can take a 10MHz reference signal, and people seem to speak well of it. Not sure how good of job it does locking onto a reference signal, reclocking and redistributing it. Mutec does offer their Reference clocks, so I would speculate it was built with this task in mind. As a downside, I notice the MC-3+ has a switching power supply, which I fear may compromise its performance potential. Anyone here have experience with it?

I'm happy to consider other options. What other affordable quality word clocks can take a 10Mhz and are well performing? It's possible I might be flipping them in a year or so.

I would rather not buy a new dCS Vivaldi clock when I suspect a new model will be out soon.

Any input or advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Nick

What I have learned about clocks over this past year, particularly from the engineers at dCS, has been very ear- and eye-opening. I've learned that there is no one best clock or clocks for all DACs, and that even guessing which clock might produce improvement in one's system requires some knowledge about the engineering of that system. I know this much, though: I would only buy a master/word clock designed to supplement or supplant the clock in the DAC, and I would make sure to acquire only a reference clock likewise designed to improve the master. Going in blind is unlikely to get you what you want. For example, although the difference is slight, it is discernible with respect to the Cybershaft OP-21A and the SRS Perf10. The Perf10 seems better designed for the narrower bandwidth,, slower acting PLLs used in the Vivaldi Master Clock [and DAC], and to my ears, it shows. Whether the Novus Kronos1 I have on order will be further improvement remains to be heard. The design and features indicate it could be, but there is only one way to find out.

 

[nickw]

What I have learned about clocks over this past year, particularly from the engineers at dCS, has been very ear- and eye-opening. I've learned that there is no one best clock or clocks for all DACs, and that even guessing which clock might produce improvement in one's system requires some knowledge about the engineering of that system. I know this much, though: I would only buy a master/word clock designed to supplement or supplant the clock in the DAC, and I would make sure to acquire only a reference clock likewise designed to improve the master. Going in blind is unlikely to get you what you want. For example, although the difference is slight, it is discernible with respect to the Cybershaft OP-21A and the SRS Perf10. The Perf10 seems better designed for the narrower bandwidth,, slower acting PLLs used in the Vivaldi Master Clock [and DAC], and to my ears, it shows. Whether the Novus Kronos1 I have on order will be further improvement remains to be heard. The design and features indicate it could be, but there is only one way to find out.

Thanks for sharing. I'm curious to hear your thoughts on the Novus once you have a chance to evaluate it.

I have also been quietly reading the dCS community forum. Gleaning what I can, trying to understand the underlying challenges dCS faces. I have appreciated reading your comments on the various reference clocks you have tested.

In terms of "best clock", I can echo your comments. Implementation is equally important as the clock/technology used. There are many factors at play (horology is another interest of mine), so I can understand an appreciate some of the technical challenges, and there are many.

Something I would enjoy see being brought into the conversation are some of the core concepts from horology. The battle we are dealing with in terms of clock accuracy vs precision (isochronism) and the synchronization between clocks (using a reference signal) are really the fundamental issues watch and clock makers have been battling with for centuries.

 

[nickw]

What I have learned about clocks over this past year, particularly from the engineers at dCS, has been very ear- and eye-opening. I've learned that there is no one best clock or clocks for all DACs, and that even guessing which clock might produce improvement in one's system requires some knowledge about the engineering of that system. I know this much, though: I would only buy a master/word clock designed to supplement or supplant the clock in the DAC, and I would make sure to acquire only a reference clock likewise designed to improve the master. Going in blind is unlikely to get you what you want. For example, although the difference is slight, it is discernible with respect to the Cybershaft OP-21A and the SRS Perf10. The Perf10 seems better designed for the narrower bandwidth,, slower acting PLLs used in the Vivaldi Master Clock [and DAC], and to my ears, it shows. Whether the Novus Kronos1 I have on order will be further improvement remains to be heard. The design and features indicate it could be, but there is only one way to find out.

As a side, I wouldn't be surprised if dCS's next master wordclock had a built in high precision reference clock, such as the PRS10 from SRS.

I can see large potential advantage with integrating the reference+word clock into the same unit. You could skip the 10mhz clock sync interface, along with the challenges it brings. Instead you could derive the wordclock output directly from the reference clock and skip the middle man, so to speak. In theory anyways.

 

[justubes]

There are many ways of implementation and agruements on the best clock.

Possibly a lower quality word clock may have advantages over a master where a DDS (digital synthersizer) will convert the master clock to any chosen frequency with a penalty of maybe 1 - 2 db of phase noise. Using a op21 or better will still give a very good phase noise fugures.

Now for the implementation, different DDS i believe will have a sonic characteristic on its own. Then you have associated circuitru and different power supplies character imposed on this while still giving a very gokd phase noise of 1 - 2db worst than the masters phase noise.

These alone will change the presentation whilst maintaing the same word clock phase noise.

It is all system dependent and phase noise alone cannot predict which users will prefer in a blind test.

A poorer master clock can sound better than a better master clock because implemetation and setup such as power supply, clock cables, isolation can change what you hear in a system rather profoundly.

But without doubt, If going full steam imvesting in a clock system with no holds barred, getting the lowest phase noise clock can only allow the best sonic outcome eventually.

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Just arrived... my Cybershaft OP21A-D and LTPW-01 - thanks again to TLi who so kindly brought his unit for me to conduct a home demo, which converted me from a healthy skeptic to a feverish advocate ! Eagerly looking forward to connecting the 10MHz sinewave clock outputs to my three SOtM devices, as well as my Aurender W20 (whose performance with the Master Clock signal has not been ascertained yet). I also feel doubly lucky for perhaps having grabbed one of the last OP21As before production resumes again, due to supply constraint issues.

According to plasmod3:

Cybershaft OP21a prduction suspended

Something i just found out , Kenji has temporarily suspended the production of the OP21a where the OP20 is now his flagship model. The chips are much harder to get he says and when he does the price is much much higher than when the model first came out. So if you have an OP21a - keep it and...

www.whatsbestforum.com

 

[drunkenspyder]

As a side, I wouldn't be surprised if dCS's next master wordclock had a built in high precision reference clock, such as the PRS10 from SRS.

I can see large potential advantage with integrating the reference+word clock into the same unit. Theoretically you could skip the 10mhz clock sync interface, along with the challenges it brings. You could then derive the wordclock output directly from the reference clock and skip the middle man, so to speak. Theoretically anyways.

It would not surprise me if they took this approach, sort of a blend of the Esoteric and CH Precision approaches.

 

[drunkenspyder]

It would not surprise me if they took this approach, sort of a blend of the Esoteric and CH Precision approaches.

I’m currently on day 7 of my evaluation of the Novus Kronos1 Audio Reference Clock. This is quite a bit of different kit from what we typically see in the audio world. None of the clocks produced by Novus are/were intended for the audio retail market, until now perhaps. Their primary customers are the military and communications industries. The most recent Novus clock is called the Kronos1, and there is a version of it explicitly branded for the audio market. I have a long way to go to finish my evaluation of the Kronos1, including re-insertion of the Cybershaft OP21A and SRS Perf10, for reevaluation and reconsideration of previous listening notes. But it’s difficult not to predict where this is going. I’ve been looking for a reference clock that actually improves already excellent audio gear in the dCS Vivaldi DAC and Master Clock. Because of the way the Vivaldi Clock works, to my ears, the SRS Perf10 is a better match and produces a more noticeable improvement in the musicality of the already strong dCS stack than does the OP21A. When one considers the engineering and design choices that went into the Vivaldi, that makes perfect sense. The Kronos1 and Perf10 have more in common with each other than either does with the OP21A. And the Kronos1 is a significant step up in capability and quality from thr Perf10. It is the real deal.

 

[2ndLiner]

Thanks for doing the "heavy lifting" @drunkenspyder and I'm very interested to hear your take! What is the price of the Kronos1?

 

[drunkenspyder]

What is the price of the Kronos1?

It goes for a bit over USD$12k.

 

[2ndLiner]

I’ll take two, please! Thanks, G!

 

[QuadDiffuser]

Excellent information from John Swenson, on the subject of Master Clocks! Sorry, for whatever reason, the link below refuses to register as a hot-linked URL - please copy/paste.

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/62477-john-swenson-tutoring-paper-considerations-regarding-usage-of-external-reference-clocks-etherregen-and-other-sine-vs-square-impedance-cables—and-a-money-saving-surprise-at-the-end/

 

[QuadDiffuser]

I've inserted the three magic letters, "www", and not it's successfully turned into a hotlink - here you go, everyone!

John Swenson tutoring paper: "Considerations regarding usage of external reference clocks" (EtherREGEN and other): Sine vs. square, impedance, cables—and a money saving surprise at the end.

Many of our friends here at Audiophile Style have been waiting for us to publish John Swenson's introductory explanations concerning choosing and implementing an external reference clock—be it for connection to an EtherREGEN or some other audio device. [I take the blame for the delay. John gave m...

www.audiophilestyle.com

 

[MattyW]

Hi All,

New forum member here. I have been quietly reading WTBF in the background for some time, including this entire thread

I want to upgrade my system clocking and could use some help. I would like to add:
- A 10MHz reference clock (likely the SRS Pref10, or the Cybershaft OP21A)
- Plus two additional word clocks (for 44.1 + 48k signals) to feed my dCS network bridge. I could use help picking these.

The network bridge then feeds my Audio Note Dac which is non-reclocking. So the dac timing is based on the network bridge clock which feeds it.

Long term I will upgrade my Dac. Likely either a 4th generation dCS or the Audio Note discrete r2r dac. Once both options hit the market and I can make informed decision.

The reference clock will likely transition with me into the new DAC setup. I'm not sure if the the word clocks will transition with me, or be replaced.

Hasegawa-san of Cybershaft speaks highly of the very affordable Sound Warrior SWD-CL10. However for some reason the company doesn't currently have any available to purchase. Nor am I sure when they will again.

The Mutec MC-3+ comes to mind. It's rated at 0.1ppm, can take a 10MHz reference signal, and people seem to speak well of it. Not sure how good of job it does locking onto a reference signal, reclocking and redistributing it. Mutec does offer their Reference clocks, so I would speculate it was built with this task in mind. As a downside, I notice the MC-3+ has a switching power supply, which I fear may compromise its performance potential. Anyone here have experience with it?

I'm happy to consider other options. What other affordable quality word clocks can take a 10Mhz and are well performing? It's possible I might be flipping them in a year or so.

I would rather not buy a new dCS Vivaldi clock when I suspect a new model will be out soon.

Any input or advice would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Nick

Hey Nick, I'm running a similar setup with a Mutec MC-3+USB, 75ohm Afterdark Emperor Double Crown OCXO clock and Abbas Esoteric Audio DAC2.2SE (Multibit). The Emperor Double Crown is similar in spec to the Cybershaft OP20 when powered with the Afterdark LPS, though I'll soon be changing that for a 12V Fared Super3 after reading through this thread. It should be a nice improvement.

I always thought the Mutec was an incredible bit of gear but came across a few threads were it was claimed that removing the switching power supply in favor of an external LPS improves performance though online reports showed mixed results. Anyway I have had the SMPS removed from mine and a 2.5mm DC socket installed and used a 6vdc Fared Super3 with it. I was utterly blown away by the improvement it made with it making a similar improvement to the Afterdark clock itself.

So yes, the SMPS does hurt performance of the Mutec though you're unaware of the shortcoming until it's replaced with a quality LPS.

I hope that's of some use to you assuming too much to hasn't passed since your post.

Cheers

Matt